A letter to Square

[Abriael]

But did they do that at the expense of something else that COD players have come to like in the franchise?

Actually yes. A lot of people complained that the introduction of perks and RPG-like progression would have made the game less immediate and competitive.

Yet, it worked very well in the end.

Analogies don't need to be 100% identical, but they need to have something in common. In the case of yours, they simply don't. You're comparing changing genre with a limited change of the formula within the same genre.

As for taking variety off a game, that's not univocally a bad move. Streamlining is often done to strenghten elements of a game, even if it comes at a cost. It's not always a successful operation, but it's not necessarily a bad one per se.

And in some cases, it's not. Like having staple elements in a game franchise that fans have grown to love and taking them away from the latest game in the franchise line, a backlash is actually quite appropriate. And to tell you the truth, we should be encouraging such backlashes, because it tells game developers what the fans want. And what they DON'T want.

And again you continue talking for "the fans". You don't represent "the fans". So you can't realistically assess what "the fans" want and what they "DON'T want".

Also, it's not for you to decide what the "key elements in a franchise" are. You can decide what the elements you personally like are. But that's quite a different issue.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I mean, it's not like anyone still plays the COD games and the Madden games after all this time? Right? Right? (facepalm) Come on, Abriael!

Yeah, and people continue to bash them for not evolving enough. Mind you, included the goon from the video you praised so much.

Look, not making the game a linear, connect the dots interactive movie is not stopping the game from evolving.

Hyperbolechu, I chose you!

Dragon's Lair is an interactive movie (and people loved and still love it). FFXIII has nothing to do with that.

Like I said, you and I have some different (VERY different) ideas on what would evolve the franchise.

No. I simply keep an open mind on the creative freedom developer have (and should always be granted) in evolving a franchise.

I never said I liked the effect of their decisions in this particular case, but discounting the validity of this kind of choice in the name of "the fans" is simply illogical.

Broad sweeping generalizations of a fanbase don't help your argument.

That's why I did not do any "broad sweeping generalization". I explicitly mentioned "portions" and "certain fringes" of the fanbase. I did not talk about all, I didn't talk about most. I talked about "some", which is no generalization.

lol To every rule, there's a few odd exceptions. In this case, very odd. XD

Sorry to burst a bubble, but you're making an entirely false point. I'm no "odd" exception, or an exception at all, as there are a ton of people that enjoyed XIII and you have no way to say that you represent or repeat the opinion of the majority.

But as i said before, there's a difference between "representing" and "repeating" the words of people from a fanbase. Just because I agree with those words doesn't necessarily dub me the representative. No thank you to that job. lol

The point is that you're painting those words as representative of the fanbase. While they aren't. They're representative of a number of individuals within the fanbase.

You don't have any proof that I don't. lol

But I'm not claiming to speak for anyone else than myself, so I don't need proof. On the other hand, you're claiming to be talking for the fanbase, so the burden of proof lays on you.

But I CAN give you proof that enough people had a problem with the linearity that it was posted on many blogs, many editorial sites, and Squeenix themselves felt the need to step forward to defend the linearity of the game, as well as a few apologists.

Again, you're implying statistics that don't exist calling them "few". Besides, an opinion being popular doesn't make it right. Ignorance is extremely widespread in this industry.

True, but my point is, the game was extremely linear compared to the others in the franchise.Regardless of whether or not linear games come with their own set of challenges and whatnot, the question is, should a Final Fantasy game be that linear? A large chunk of the fanbase says "No".

Better, and yet that doesn't mean they're right, or that they have the right to impose their view on the developers. Like it or not, others enjoyed it, and developers have the full right to explore different tastes and audience. That's the nice thing about creativity.

Sure, you had to eventually go back to the game in order to do more if you wanted to progress. But the thing is, that freedom of choice is one of the things that people liked aout Final Fantasy as a franchise.

Only, there wasn't ANY freedom of choice in most final fantasy games.

See, that's one of the things about Final Fantasy that players love

Again, talking for "players". When will you start talking for yourself?

You liked the illusion. I get that. But it's still just an illusion. The developers thought they could achieve something by focusing their resources (that are always finite) on other elements.

Whether they were successful or not (which is subjective), they're entitled to their creative vision.

You have a right to criticism, as long as that criticism is constructive, but a large portion of the criticism you can read around is entirely overblown and irrational, not to mention not constructive at all (and completely forgets the good points of the game, which is another misrepresentation of reality that you see very often nowadays).

[SkyeWindbinder]

Actually yes. A lot of people complained that the introduction of perks and RPG-like progression would have made the game less immediate and competitive.

Yet, it worked very well in the end.

But the thing of it is, it didn't make the game less immediate or competitive. It didn't take anything away from the franchise that people were used to. Unlike FFXIII, which was extremely linear, taking away the free roaming aspects that were in the former roman numeral big console FFs. So that's far from a good example.

Analogies don't need to be 100% identical, but they need to have something in common. In the case of yours, they simply don't. You're comparing changing genre with a limited change of the formula within the same genre.

I'm comparing a big change in a franchise to a big change in a franchise, both of which would not work out well at all. I think it serves it's purpose in pointing out the similarities in changing something big about a franchise that people wouldn't want changed. While the scenarios are different, the core of the point I made was the same.

As for taking variety off a game, that's not univocally a bad move. Streamlining is often done to strenghten elements of a game, even if it comes at a cost. It's not always a successful operation, but it's not necessarily a bad one per se.

At least this much we agree on. However, I question how making FFXIII, or any future FFs, tunnel-vision linear is "strengthening" or " evolving" the franchise as a whole.

And again you continue talking for "the fans". You don't represent "the fans". So you can't realistically assess what "the fans" want and what they "DON'T want".

The thing is, I've already said, over and over, that I am not a representative of the fans. I've also said, over and over, that my statements are based on criticisms of FFXIII's linear nature by many fans who have spoken concerns over it. Once again (Gawd, how many times do I have to say this? lol Hello!? Is anybody out there!?) there is a difference between "speaking for the fans" and "speaking the words of the fans". I know I'll have to say this again, so let me highlight that sentence and hit Ctrl+C right now. Good grief. lol

Also, it's not for you to decide what the "key elements in a franchise" are. You can decide what the elements you personally like are. But that's quite a different issue.

Considering the fact that these elements have remained throughout the successful titles of Final Fantasy releases, not to mention the stink made by fans when one or more is taken out, I don't think it's unreasonable or "jumping the gun" to consider them key elements.

But hey, perhaps some believe the key elements are pretty visuals. lol So, whatever.

Yeah, and people continue to bash them for not evolving enough. Mind you, included the goon from the video you praised so much.

There's that word again "evolve".

Remember what I said in that one paragraph?

Also, calling someone a goon for expressing their opinion is a bit... much. Not very professional, especially for one who claims to be a journalist. But then again, you're not writing an editorial piece, so I guess it passes. Still unnecessary, but whatever. Look, the guy gave his opinion, worded it well, and backed it up with references. I know, you don't think his comparisons hold water,but imo, they were good analogies. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you as far as that goes. (shrug)

Hyperbolechu, I chose you!

Dragon's Lair is an interactive movie (and people loved and still love it). FFXIII has nothing to do with that.

Except the fact that it is practically an exercise in fighting in a straight line with oodles of movies/cutscenes in between. And of course, the Dragon Lair comparison makes no sense, because Dragon Lair is it's own franchise that does things differently from the way Final Fantasy does. So... what are you... talking about? lol

No. I simply keep an open mind on the creative freedom developer have (and should always be granted) in evolving a franchise.

Remember what I said in that one paragraph?

I never said I liked the effect of their decisions in this particular case, but discounting the validity of this kind of choice in the name of "the fans" is simply illogical.

Not really if you think about the fact that it's the "fans" that got Final Fantasy as far as it got. And that happened because the "fans" like the franchise, as well as the staple elements of said franchise. So, take those elements away, and what do you reallythink is going to happen? I mean, really? (I can't believe this is even a debate. lol)

That's why I did not do any "broad sweeping generalization". I explicitly mentioned "portions" and "certain fringes" of the fanbase. I did not talk about all, I didn't talk about most. I talked about "some", which is no generalization.

Nor do i claim to be speaking for all the "fans" myself. In fact, I claimed to be speaking for no one, simply stating that enough of the fanbase made a stink about the linearity of the game for it to be addressed on numerous websites and even answered by Squeenix themselves.

Sorry to burst a bubble, but you're making an entirely false point. I'm no "odd" exception, or an exception at all, as there are a ton of people that enjoyed XIII and you have no way to say that you represent or repeat the opinion of the majority.

And there are tons who didn't like the linearity of the game, and didn't like the game. There's no way to prove you're in the majority either. As for the "odd" exception, that was in no way a serious comment. (Didn't even see the smiley, did you?) Then again, your comments are often acidic, combative, and sometimes contain an outright air of hostility. I'm not surprised the humor was lost on you. Lighten up, Abriael. And you may be more tolerated on these forums. lol

The point is that you're painting those words as representative of the fanbase. While they aren't. They're representative of a number of individuals within the fanbase.

Parrot, Abriael. Not "represent". "Parrot."

Oh screw it. I'm gonna do another shortcut. Every timeyou say I'm trying to "represent" the fanbase, I'm going to post the words "Remember what I said in that other certain paragraph?" Again, let me hit Ctrl+C and get ready. lol Oy vey.

But I'm not claiming to speak for anyone else than myself, so I don't need proof. On the other hand, you're claiming to be talking for the fanbase, so the burden of proof lays on you.

Remember what I said in that other certain paragraph?

Also, if you want proof that the linearity was enough of an issue with fans for it to be addressed (defended or otherwise), here you go:

http://www.techhive.com/article/1910...linearity.html

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/01/13/wh...st-didnt-work/

http://kotaku.com/5959072/final-fant...n-about-choice

http://www.computerandvideogames.com...iis-linearity/

There you go. Read. You've much to learn.

Again, you're implying statistics that don't exist calling them "few". Besides, an opinion being popular doesn't make it right. Ignorance is extremely widespread in this industry.

Don't exist? Urgh, I'm not even going to give that an argument. Just, look at me last paragraph. "Don't exist". lol (sigh) Oh dear, Abriael. What am I going to do with you?

Look, this isn't about what's "right" or "wrong". This is about the opinions of a good number of the fanbase, good enough to where it was numerously addressed and even answered back by SE themselves.

Better, and yet that doesn't mean they're right, or that they have the right to impose their view on the developers. Like it or not, others enjoyed it, and developers have the full right to explore different tastes and audience. That's the nice thing about creativity.

Another nice thing about creativity is criticism of said created product. People who have been fans of the franchise are going to criticize the linearity of FFXIII. That's almost a given. This criticism doesn't really make anyone right or wrong. But the people who are complaining about it have perfectly valid points seeing as how that illusion of exploration which they had has been taken away. And imo (and a good chunk of many others) that's not a good thing. Nor is it an "evolution" of the series. (I still have yet to see how taking away the free-roaming aspects of the game constitutes "evolution" in the franchise. Seriously.)

Only, there wasn't ANY freedom of choice in most final fantasy games.

(facepalm) Did you even read my last post? The one where I specifically stated that the illusion of free-roaming and choice of action and progression is one of the elements of Final Fantasy that fans hold dear? Did you? Good god, man.

Again, talking for "players". When will you start talking for yourself?

Remember what I said in that other certain paragraph?

You liked the illusion. I get that. But it's still just an illusion. The developers thought they could achieve something by focusing their resources (that are always finite) on other elements.

Yes, like pretty pictures. lol Wasn't as well-received as they might have liked it to be, obviously.

Whether they were successful or not (which is subjective), they're entitled to their creative vision.

Indeed. And we are entitled to give out opinion of said vision, whether it be positive or negative.

You have a right to criticism, as long as that criticism is constructive, but a large portion of the criticism you can read around is entirely overblown and irrational, not to mention not constructive at all.

Yes, then again you can find a large portion of reasonable, intelligent, constructive criticism as well. Not everyone who gives a bad review is a raging frothing fanboy. (Just some, lol)

Urgh, but that's enough out of me for tonight. I've got some serious stuff to do in the morrow. Good debate, Abriael. Goodnight, and goodnight to everyone else!

[Abriael]

But the thing of it is, it didn't make the game less immediate or competitive. It didn't take anything away from the franchise that people were used to. Unlike FFXIII, which was extremely linear, taking away the free roaming aspects that were in the former roman numeral big console FFs. So that's far from a good example.

Of course it makes it less immediate, as it adds another layer that doesn't belong to simple run and shoot, and it influences competitiveness, as perks and progression mean that it's not just a matter of who shoots better.
FFXIII didn't have much less free roaming than other numbered FF's (actually it had more than some), they were just concentrated in the second half of the game.

I'm comparing a big change in a franchise to a big change in a franchise, both of which would not work out well at all. I think it serves it's purpose in pointing out the similarities in changing something big about a franchise that people wouldn't want changed. While the scenarios are different, the core of the point I made was the same.

No. You're comparing a radical change in genre with a limited change in features. You're comparing apples to escalators.

At least this much we agree on. However, I question how making FFXIII, or any future FFs, tunnel-vision linear is "strengthening" or " evolving" the franchise as a whole.

That depends on the features and story built around that linearity, and how much of the game is linear.

The thing is, I've already said, over and over, that I am not a representative of the fans. I've also said, over and over, that my statements are based on criticisms of FFXIII's linear nature by many fans who have spoken concerns over it. Once again (Gawd, how many times do I have to say this? lol Hello!? Is anybody out there!?) there is a difference between "speaking for the fans" and "speaking the words of the fans". I know I'll have to say this again, so let me highlight that sentence and hit Ctrl+C right now. Good grief. lol

There's absolutely no difference. You're not speaking "the words of the fans", you're speaking the words of SOME fans. Not all the fans. Not the majority. You don't know how many agree with you, so you may as well just speak for yourself and rely on your own argument instead of looking for validation outside yourself.

Considering the fact that these elements have remained throughout the successful titles of Final Fantasy releases, not to mention the stink made by fans when one or more is taken out, I don't think it's unreasonable or "jumping the gun" to consider them key elements.

2D graphics have remained through the first six chapters of the saga. I'm sure that doesn't mean they should have made FFVII 2D as well (and yes, quite a few fans raged about that as well, initially).

But hey, perhaps some believe the key elements are pretty visuals. lol So, whatever.

Actually pretty visuals, according you YOUR parameters of key elements would definitely be a key element. As the FF franchise always had "pretty visuals" for the time.

Also, calling someone a goon for expressing their opinion is a bit... much. Not very professional, especially for one who claims to be a journalist. But then again, you're not writing an editorial piece, so I guess it passes. Still unnecessary, but whatever. Look, the guy gave his opinion, worded it well, and backed it up with references. I know, you don't think his comparisons hold water,but imo, they were good analogies. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you as far as that goes. (shrug)

I'm calling him a goon for trying to sell a blatant misrepresentation of the gaming industry as true. Lying is never a good thing, and there are quite a few key elements of his argument that can be identified as plain lies. I'd say "goon" is a rather mild term for that.

Except the fact that it is practically an exercise in fighting in a straight line with oodles of movies/cutscenes in between. And of course, the Dragon Lair comparison makes no sense, because Dragon Lair is it's own franchise that does things differently from the way Final Fantasy does. So... what are you... talking about? lol

Final Fantasy games are also very different from each other. The fact that they have the same name means basically nothing in this case.
And no, you're resorting to hyperbole again, as FFXIII wasn't just a "exercise in fighting in a straight line with oodles of movies/cutscenes in between" even in its most linear part, even without mentioning the fact that it had a huge roaming part in the second half.

Not really if you think about the fact that it's the "fans" that got Final Fantasy as far as it got. And that happened because the "fans" like the franchise, as well as the staple elements of said franchise. So, take those elements away, and what do you reallythink is going to happen? I mean, really? (I can't believe this is even a debate. lol)

The "fans" like the Final Fantasy franchise for a whole variety of things, not just for the things that *you* like and that might be missing on FFXIII or in other games of the franchise.

Nor do i claim to be speaking for all the "fans" myself. In fact, I claimed to be speaking for no one, simply stating that enough of the fanbase made a stink about the linearity of the game for it to be addressed on numerous websites and even answered by Squeenix themselves.

You said a ton of times "the fans" like this, "the fans" say that. That's speaking for the fans. Quite literally.

And there are tons who didn't like the linearity of the game, and didn't like the game. There's no way to prove you're in the majority either. As for the "odd" exception, that was in no way a serious comment. (Didn't even see the smiley, did you?) Then again, your comments are often acidic, combative, and sometimes contain an outright air of hostility. I'm not surprised the humor was lost on you. Lighten up, Abriael. And you may be more tolerated on these forums. lol

I'm not interested in telling people what they want to hear to be liked or tolerated.

Oh screw it. I'm gonna do another shortcut. Every timeyou say I'm trying to "represent" the fanbase, I'm going to post the words "Remember what I said in that other certain paragraph?" Again, let me hit Ctrl+C and get ready. lol Oy vey.

Spamming the same sentence over and over doesn't help your arguments.

Also, if you want proof that the linearity was enough of an issue with fans for it to be addressed (defended or otherwise), here you go:

http://www.techhive.com/article/1910...linearity.html

http://www.joystiq.com/2012/01/13/wh...st-didnt-work/

http://kotaku.com/5959072/final-fant...n-about-choice

http://www.computerandvideogames.com...iis-linearity/

There you go. Read. You've much to learn.

There isn't much to learn there.

The fact that a stink has been raised doesn't make the problem relevant. Gamers raise a stink over *everything* nowadays and the press has everything to gain in riding it.

Don't exist? Urgh, I'm not even going to give that an argument. Just, look at me last paragraph. "Don't exist". lol (sigh) Oh dear, Abriael. What am I going to do with you?

The statistic doesn't exist. There's no valid statistic that shows that the majority of the fans agrees with you so you may, again, just talk for yourself without looking for external validation.

Snide little jabs like "What am I going to do with you?" don't really help your argument much here.

Another nice thing about creativity is criticism of said created product. People who have been fans of the franchise are going to criticize the linearity of FFXIII. That's almost a given.

Not really. Some are, some aren't. Because Final Fantasy games have always been a LOT more than games that give some sort of illusion of free roaming, so many simply don't focus on that.

besides the fact that the people that define FFXIII "linear" either didn't finish it or they're intentionally misrepresenting reality to prove a false point (or need to double-check the dictionary for what "linear" actually means).

(facepalm) Did you even read my last post? The one where I specifically stated that the illusion of free-roaming and choice of action and progression is one of the elements of Final Fantasy that fans hold dear? Did you? Good god, man.

I read it, and if an ILLUSION is so important for you, then maybe the problem lays in how much value you attribute to illusion, instead of looking at solid elements.

Indeed. And we are entitled to give out opinion of said vision, whether it be positive or negative.

As long as it's rational. And if it's irrational I'm entitled to point and laugh.

Yes, then again you can find a large portion of reasonable, intelligent, constructive criticism as well. Not everyone who gives a bad review is a raging frothing fanboy. (Just some, lol)

Someone that focuses his whole opinion on a single element of a game that has many elements simply isn't being very rational.

To give FFXIII a "bad review" one has to be overly focused on very few points and completely ignore quite a few others.

The same could be said about giving it a glowing review, mind you.

[shane239]

wall of texts did not read :P

[Kallera]

wall of texts did not read :P

I'm just going to leave these two matchlock pistols here. Who will be Abriael's and Skywind's second?

[Abriael]

I'm just going to leave these two matchlock pistols here. Who will be Abriael's and Skywind's second?

Probably we'll end when we stop having fun with the debate?

[Xeonerable]

Its that oppositional conversation style at work.

[Abriael]

Its that oppositional conversation style at work.

Some people still like to talk to each other even when their positions have little in common instead of scoffing, throwing in a personal attack and leaving.

[Cedri]

Some people still like to talk to each other even when their positions have little in common instead of scoffing, throwing in a personal attack and leaving.

I think you should probably stop using the "Hyperbolechu, I chose you!" line.

[Abriael]

I think you should probably stop using the "Hyperbolechu, I chose you!" line.

Nah, it's cute.