[Loremonger] 1.X Lominsan Story Arc

[Anonymoose]

Update: Big question mark taken down by reading the other languages.

Y'shtola got to Emerick's sequester ship by hitching a ride with Hob. I always wondered why the hell Hob said, "I might've let you and that damned catwoman coax me into bringing ye, but it don't mean I have to like it." in 1572 despite Y'shtola's investigation being years (ten of them?) ago... it's just bad phrasing.

What he means is, "I haven't been back here since I brought that miqo'te... don't stay too long, I hate this place."

That's how Y'shtola got out there, that's how Hob triggered the Echo, that's why Hob has memories of trying to weasel his way out of Emerick's ship.

What Really Happened:
Hob was commissioned by Y'shtola to take her to Emerick's ship, but as soon as they got there he spotted Travanchet's two ships on the horizon. He went below decks to warn the 'Cudas, who called for reinforcements, which is where the other two 'Cuda ships came from just in time to fight Travanchet's reaver boats. Hell, if Merod is to be believed, they were probably already en route considering he thinks they'll follow Y'shtola for being a snoop.

See how these things all fall into place once you get one thing?

ONE DOWN, TOO MANY TO GO.

Looks like she might not be using many Archon superpowers after all!

[Anonymoose]

AH, BALLS. (Thal's balls?)

I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier.

And we can't forget about them fishbacks now, can we? The Sahagin been breathin' down Limsa's neck for nigh on five years...and there ain't no signs of 'em lettin' up.

Treasures of the Main

Baderon says this to Y'shtola when she first arrives in Limsa Lominsa.

Logic Hierarchy:

• Sisipu remembers when the sahagin were an annoyance, at best; occasionally cutting a net or stealing a buoy.
• As we learn from the Sylph, beastmen change, becoming larger and more violent, as a result of summoning the primals.
• The paragons taught the primals to be summoned to the beast tribes in 1562, after the destruction of the seal on Mor Dhona's aether.
• The first primals to be summoned were Titan and Leviathan, slain by Lominsa's Company of Heroes.
• The Sahagin have been attacking Limsa for five years before the treasure is stolen from seal rock.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this not mean that Y'shtola is actually investigating Limsa Lominsa in 1567, halfway between the break of the seal and 1.X's present day?

Until now I've been focusing on clues like the difference in Sisipu's age and Baderon claiming he was a wee sprat the last time the serpent rose, but these are examples of the English localization team bringing a more readable and enjoyable flair to the translation; they might have accidentally been exaggerated beyond intent.

EDIT:
Ah'fak. English is the only one that specifies 5 years, too... I can't tell which things are the EN crew purposely giving us good information as flair and which things might be the EN crew accidentally giving us mistaken information as flair.

>(x.x)¬o

Anyway:
All transcripts and synopses are up, as is my current guess at a chronological timeline and a list of presently unanwered questions. Once those questions have been eliminated, full Loremonger articles will follow and IT'S OFF TO GRIDANIA!

[Catapult]

Easter vacation done. Back to business...

I'm gonna focus on the Limsa stuff for now. I might get into the aether/primals stuff in a different thread.

The French text does not imply that Carvallain was the imprisioned captain of the ship in Shapeless Melody. Rather, when combined with the German and English text, it suggests that Stahlmann is trying to tie the Misery's captain to a smuggling operation (a form of piracy) conducted aboard this supposed passenger ship. But to do so, he needs to extract a connection to Carvallain out of the ship's one-eyed capatin. That captain may or may not be Hylfyrr - being one-eyed isn't a physical feature we can tie to a single pirate, conspiracies notwithstanding.

If Stahlmann can tie Carvallain to a crime, he has an easier justification to arrest the silver-tongued captain, who is having a nice time aboard the Astalicia, unafriad of the Authorities. In the end, I guess he gets an opportunity when Emerick is rumbled.

Also, I can "run a tight ship" in a business, or in my house. The figure of speech could be considered appropriate to Carvallain's operations rather than explicitly the Astalicia, or the Misery. In fact, Stahlmann could even be referring explicitly to Carvallain's smuggling operation that he has seemed unable to crack. It is also possible Carvallain controls more than one ship. Those two clearly have no love for each other.

Fishbacks:
I'm sure how confortable I am reading stuff in to this 5-year thing. We're talking about a race of aquatic beastmen rather than typical land-rovers. The Sahagin may have had very different reasons to become more active around Limsa in the 5 preceding years. We also have to remember that we've got an ascian posing as a fishback (sahagin-affiliated landlubber) and that throws another spanner in any assumptions we make about them.

Questions:
Can someone tell me if Carvallain ever appeared aboard the Astalicia outside of echos? I'm thinking about occurances in the Pugulist quests etc (I never watched those properly).
Also, are all the references to the Astalicia being the name of the ship docked exclusive to the present time or inside the echo as well? I've got this tingling sensation we might be ship-jumping to the Misery down at those docks as we echo-jump and this would open a whole new can of worms. Please quash this suspicion if you have evidnce handy.

[Anonymoose]

Carvallain... Sthalmann... etc.

That makes a lot more sense - and does actually tie in rather well to Hyllfyr. The Astalicia seems to have been still rather clandestine in the echoes, and yet Carvallain is always hanging out there. Now, we've been on the Misery in 1572, and it's not the same construction as we see on Hob's ship or the Astalicia.

To answer your questions, yes, we have seen Carvallain there in the present, I believe; the MRD story arc, yes? And yes, the Astalicia is where it always is back in 1567(?), as well, as Y'shtola looks at it and refers to it by name in an echo.

If what you say is accurate, I think by far the most likely scenario is that Shapeless Melody takes place in the same two week window as the rest of the echoes and is on the Astalicia, with Sthalmann undercover trying to get information on Carvallain.

That, of course, still begs the question of whether or not H'naanza was onto anything when she asked if there might be anything the Serpent would care about being on board at the time, which I cannot see a possibility for, so far. I think she was just speculating.

I'm sure how confortable I am reading stuff in to this 5-year thing. We're talking about a race of aquatic beastmen rather than typical land-rovers. The Sahagin may have had very different reasons to become more active around Limsa in the 5 preceding years. We also have to remember that we've got an ascian posing as a fishback (sahagin-affiliated landlubber) and that throws another spanner in any assumptions we make about them.

This is true, but the hierarchy above just seems too solid, to me. The way Sisipu refers to them as once being a mere annoyance says to me that this was pre-transformation. If they were already a violent race, but were just hanging back, I feel like they'd have still done more than cut a trawler's net and make off with their catch when there's perfectly good gold, gear, and crystals on board these ships, as well.

If we accept it as true that being a beast tribe that looks like the Amal/Ixal as opposed to the Sylph/Goblin/Qirirn/etc. requires first summoning a primal

(and the Sahagin totally look like the Amal/Ixal)

at the very least, would not make 1562 impossible of an assumption?

To have been attacking for 5 years means that the earliest date is my guess of 1567, which is coincidentally the latest date they could have started summoning by if Baderon were delivering that line in present day. That heavily narrows down our window.

Anonymoose Thoroughly Checks His Logic

Just now I made mention of Eorzea's future. But first I must speak of the past, for that which is to come was ever the product of that which has been. Ten years ago, an event took place which shook the very foundation of Eorzea: a tribe of beasts summoned forth a primal. So began the spread of summoning till there was not a tribe in this world to whom the practice remained unknown.

[QUOTE"The Lodestone"]"This brings us to events of ten years past. Just as the Amalj'aa and the kobolds succeeded in summoning their gods, so too did the Ixal call forth the primal Garuda."[/QUOTE]

The primal first summoned eight years ago by the nomadic Amalj’aa,

Now, Ifrit was first summoned 8 years ago, so that means the first summoned was either Garuda or Titan, or both.

The Paragons taught all tribes to summon primals.
The first primal was summoned in 1562
This primal was either Titan or Garuda
The Company of Heroes defeated both Leviathan and Titan
The Sylphs are still small and friendly because they've never summoned a primal.
They say that the Amalj'aa and Ixal were the same way before they summoned theirs.
Therefore, the Sahagin probably were as well.
Therefore, the Sahagin only became violent after summoning Leviathan.
Therefore, the earliest the Sahagin could summon him was 1562.
If they summoned him in 1562, Baderon would be saying this in 1567
If they summoned him in 1563, Baderon would be saying this in 1568.
If they summoned him in 1564, Baderon would be saying this in 1569.
If they summoned him in 1565, Baderon would be saying this in 1570.
If they summoned him in 1566, Baderon would be saying this in 1571.
If they summoned him in 1567, Baderon would be saying this in 1572.
It wasn't 1572, the eternal "present day" of FFXIV.
The NPCs in Limsa refer to it being at least plural years ago.

I would say that it has more likely to have been more years than less based on how much has changed, particularly Sisipu and the fact that no one around town is afraid of serpents or primals anymore.

Meanwhile, the Gridanians are terrified now that she's been summoned in 1572 so, I'm guessing that they've never killed her over there in Gridania. Meanwhile, these Lominsan badasses took down two, back to back. Therefore, I'd say, statistically speaking, Titan and Leviathan were probably the first up.

Yeah, I still say this Echo is 1567~9 with a heavy skew towards the 7.

Is that not the most logical assumption?

[Catapult]

Yeah, I still say this Echo is 1567~9 with a heavy skew towards the 7.

Is that not the most logical assumption?

The issue I have with this is the Starshower in Never the Twain Shall Meet. We've tied both the Gridanian and Ul'dahn story arcs to being ten years prior, concurrent with (or at least close to) the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

Why would the Limsan Shower just happen to occur five years later all of a sudden and still leave Y'shtola shocked that someone can use the Echo?

I'm not convinced. I think the 5-year comment is the red-herring or inconsistency.

((Typo correction: I'm not sure how much I'm willing to read into the 5-year statement.))

[Anonymoose]

Why would the Limsan Shower just happen to occur five years later all of a sudden and still leave Y'shtola shocked that someone can use the Echo?

Minfilia expresses exasperated confusion that for so long there were no Woken and now, in only the last few months, there are so many. Regardless of whether the echo takes place 5 or 10 years ago, it would have been during this dry spell, thus leaving Y'shtola stunned to find someone.

As to why it would be the only city that didn't have it happen in '62... that I don't know. However, Does the inclusion of a beast tribe as a threat in the story make the idea of it being in '62 extremely unlikely, however?

[Catapult]

Well, let us take a step back.

While the Sylphs may discuss the increasing violence of the Ixal, they still weren't friendly to begin with. They became enemies of the Twelveswood/Tinolqa a long time ago. They have not been happy friendly people for many generations, although their capability to cause trouble with dirgibles now powered by eyes of Garuda has given them a new and bolder edge.

When I look at the Sahagin, I think of a tribe of pirates operating out of Mistbeard Cove, causing trouble in their own right like many of the other pirate gangs. I fail to see the summoning of a primal as being the sole catalyst for becoming a more serious nuisance at various points through history.

[Anonymoose]

EDIT: Gone to do some research.

[Orophin]

Just something to think about and it may or may not help with the theory of the physical changes of the beastmen:

In the BLM quest, Ququruka immediately recognized the three descendants of the the beastmen he amalgamated into the Batraal looking thing, which occured at least 100 years prior to the BLM quest.

The only thing that would prove this inconsistent is that this quest was written after the dev. team change and may not remain totally consistent with the original story planning.

Also, as far as Caravallain goes, we discussed this earlier but I think Rostnstahl finally finds that evidence he was looking for in the past when he finds that book in the MRD quest.

[Anonymoose]

In the BLM quest, Ququruka immediately recognized the three descendants of the the beastmen he amalgamated into the Batraal looking thing, which occured at least 100 years prior to the BLM quest.

This is a good point and I've been slowly reaching the same conclusion as I go along. I think the concept that the beast tribes look overwhelmingly different once they summon a primal may be something we once assumed but now forget to question.

It may be that the sylph, who still look cute and friendly (as do all the other non-violent races referred to as beastmen), told us that the beast tribes changed because of the primal - and then we saw legends of how they began, as feathered birds and normal lizards, and we connected the dots ourselves; the whole thing then snowballed to this. It happens.

I think the primals change the races they're associted with over a much, much longer period of time, where as summoning only changes their demeanor. The sylphs only say that they darken hearts and poison minds. The biggest and most immediate effects of physical summoning may only be behavioral - violence, zealotry, paranoia

The bad news? Less obvious - less dramatic; lot of bad assumptions. Silver lining? No one's ever seen the sahagin outside of that concept art. Their demeanor is all I'm going on, so I don't need to rework the assumption so much as we need to find better evidence against/for it.

At least the dev. team won't have new art packets to make if the Sylph really are the ones that bring Ramuh forth.