[dev1023] Getting rid of emnity generation skills

[RemnantWolf]

Getting rid of hate creating WSs: no, bad idea.

Adding position to aggro generation factors: could be a really good fun addition of tactics, I like it.

[Dragon]

I don't think abolishing enmity-increasing skills completely is a good idea, but I agree that positioning should play a larger role in the whole enmity dynamics.

The skill "cover" for example would be fun if it actually worked like this: The tank stands between the covered player and the mob and gets hit when something would hit the covered player. Currently, when a Gladi uses Cover and the covered character is really behind him, he is still hit by front-attacks. So yeah, covering is a nice thing. I don't think any class should be able to cover, though, so it's not just position but also a certain competence to do it right.

There still have to be skills that allow the tank to "turn around" the mob when it's going for someone else. I imagine it would be very difficult to get between the mob and the archer when it is already running there. No chance really before the archer is getting hit.

So in short:
* Make positioning more important in general.
* Allow enmity to be generated from other places than right in front of the mob (i.e. provoke or damage).
* Only tank classes/jobs should be competent to cover other players. (Not sure if a skill should be necessary there.)

This I could agree with; OP's idea I cannot agree with. Position = possibly good IF implemented right; taking away provoke/taunt and any other hate-enducing skill = bad. Period.

[Lerris]

There is only one mmo that I'm aware of that uses this type of mechanic, it's called Dungeons and Dragons Online or DDO for short, in this game they have such a mechanic, and it is exploited regularly, but I guess you could go play it and see if this is really what you want. DDO is free to download and free to play so no worries about costs.

The game's got to be built from conception to include ideas like this, and as people have already said positioning as a reason for failure is something the population has already tried in a more simple fashion and still rejected (thief, FFXI). It's not fun. It's just frustrating.

DDO was built from the ground up for this sort of thing. All content is instanced ( experience points are awarded for completing instances and subgoals), and instances include claustrophobic dungeons and wide open spaces. Some of the boss fights are a bit gimmicky, and puzzles are fairly common. There is content for a variety of playstyles. Combat is very fast-paced, and you tend to be very mobile while fighting.

[Rowyne]

Um... no.

I'm a healer and I don't like PvP (which is why I play Final Fantasy, PvE-focused games). So, right away these ideas do not appeal to me.

Managing my aggro and tanks being able to provoke not only add levels of complexity to battle, but help correct inevitable mistakes.

I've already played a game with unforgiving combat that was 100% about positioning, constant movement and twitch responses. It's called WoW-Cataclysm.

No thanks.

[Seikninkuru]

Unfortunately it'll never work. Why would a monster ever beat on a full plate wearing tank with a shield when there are other lower defense players around? Even if they dont kill the players with auto attack, the mob will get tp faster by attacking something other than a tank.

What's the answer to that? Root and nuke as the only method of play? {Thanks, but I'll have to pass}

[Teknoman]

What I dont get is why a Marauder has enmity generating skills. I know they are changing skills with the coming battle system, but I guess it's for Marauder being some sort of off hand tank, or at least thats what the initial plan was?

[Peregrine]

What I dont get is why a Marauder has enmity generating skills. I know they are changing skills with the coming battle system, but I guess it's for Marauder being some sort of off hand tank, or at least thats what the initial plan was?

They have enmity-generating abilities because they're poorly designed and thought out. Marauder is a DD job, not a tank job, and yet the developers tried to stock it with tanking abilities instead of damage abilities.

Right now Marauder is a better Gladiator subjob than it is a primary class.

I will say that people grossly overestimate the worth of provoke and taunt in the game. They generate next to no real enmity. They are status effects that wear off quickly.

Tank's ability bar should be chock full of instant abilities that don't take stamina, but DO crazily increase enmity. I don't even use provoke and taunt on single mobs to tank. You just use more profundity/dark seal/blood rite/raging strike/ferocity/hawk's eyes than anyone else.

Why have profundity on your bar if you're not going to cast. DUH, for the free enmity!

[Rowyne]

I will say that people grossly overestimate the worth of provoke and taunt in the game. They generate next to no real enmity. They are status effects that wear off quickly.

Yeah, gotta say they're a little broken at the moment. I'm a CON (healer), and my husband plays a PUG (but has tanking experience in other MMOs). He always had trouble holding aggro while playing with me, until he leveled CON enough to get Cure. Now he just throws a Cure on himself instead of taunting and has no problem.

Provoke definitely needs some more oomf.

[Jinko]

They already said that enmity will now be generated based on damage 1 to 1 and that non damage generating skills such as healing, provoke and buffing will be converted accordingly.

Did you not read the letter from the battle design team leader ?

They aren't going to change it this late into making the new battle system.

[Lerris]

They already said that enmity will now be generated based on damage 1 to 1 and that non damage generating skills such as healing, provoke and buffing will be converted accordingly.

Did you not read the letter from the battle design team leader ?

They aren't going to change it this late into making the new battle system.

From the provided text, the bolded part seems like an assumption for which there is not enough information.

"A hate conversion formula will be applied to actions that target friendlies or do not inflict damage."

Provoke may very well continue to work as Peregrine described, it's design not intended for primary tank but for emergency use. We need to wait and see.