[dev1023] Getting rid of emnity generation skills

[Shaily]

I'm sorry, but I really don't like this idea at all. Some of us have enough trouble getting into the right position in a fight as it is (AoE shapes, being within range to hit, being able to see your own character when the mob is 10x as big as you are, etc.). Adding this kind of mechanic only makes things more difficult, and not fun. If I'm acting as healer in a party, I don't want to have to spend the entire battle making sure I'm in exactly the right spot to not get hit as soon as the mob realises I'm squishy. Likewise, as a tank, I don't want to have to be running around in circles, trying to stay between the mob and the squishies behind me so they don't get taken out in one hit. There's also those mobs that have the knock-back skills; the minute they knock the tank out of the way, any squishies who happened to be behind the tank are now next in line, and chances are good they're going down quick, especially considering how long it takes for a player to get back into position once they've been knocked back that far.

In another game, this could possibly work, perhaps if it was implemented this way from the very beginning. In this game? No, thanks.

[Winterclaw]

Positioning doesn't necessarily require any kind of skill. It just requires walking to a place and standing there.

Monster tries to go around you. Monster tries to fake you out. Your healer wasn't paying attention and now the monster can beeline towards him and you can't get in the way. The monster tries to knock you down, or back, so he can move past you. At least you have more potential for doing things than just standing there using the same hate skill over and over.

Have you ever played linebacker in PvP? You do know other players don't exactly stay put or only focus on you if they are trying to bring down your healer. Why should mobs act any different?

No. That's what turn based combat is about.

Incorrect. Just because it is in a turn based tactical combat game doesn't mean it can't be in a RT rpg.

Implicit Emnity where the mobs would naturally go after healers or someone that's dying. With provokes being taken away, tanks can be given abilities to cover other players, defensive bonus to those who stand behind him, and to pull the mob physically away...etc.

Yeah that's something like it but not quite. It's not like I don't dislike things like a specific cover skill or buffs to help other players, but it's a little more than that. Basically mobs should determine which player they should go after first, and how to go after him, based on the current circumstances. For example if a medium armor char is low on hp, another mob might be called in by the first mob to help finish this one off now. If the mob knows you are going to be going after his healer, he should start linebacking (based on his role within the mob party).

However, in order to make this work, the mobs need to have very sophisticated AI which are very expensive to implement. Also it's easier to exploit mobs' AI in this case when they're becoming predictable.

Actually it's quite easy to implement that kind of AI (something that emulates pvp). I think that devs don't implement it because it requires execution on the players part to overcome and it can get repetitive (even if it remains a challenge). Plus I think pve players in general are too lazy to learn something new and if you really wanted to do this right, you'd probably have to have an evolving pve meta to keep players on their toes.

[Shaily]

Actually it's quite easy to implement that kind of AI (something that emulates pvp). I think that devs don't implement it because it requires execution on the players part to overcome and it can get repetitive (even if it remains a challenge). Plus I think pve players in general are too lazy to learn something new and if you really wanted to do this right, you'd probably have to have an evolving pve meta to keep players on their toes.

You're pushing the PvP v. PvE thing awfully hard. If you're so bored with the "lazy" PvE playing style, why are you playing this game? It's not intended to be primarily PvP style. That's why I like this game, because I don't like PvP, and this game lets me just play without dealing with that kind of play style or pressure. It's fun for me, and for other people who want to just play the way they like.

If you want so badly to play something geared up like PvP, play a PvP-oriented game, rather than suggesting the developers should completely change the entire AI system already set in place here.

[Veroni]

I don't think abolishing enmity-increasing skills completely is a good idea, but I agree that positioning should play a larger role in the whole enmity dynamics.

The skill "cover" for example would be fun if it actually worked like this: The tank stands between the covered player and the mob and gets hit when something would hit the covered player. Currently, when a Gladi uses Cover and the covered character is really behind him, he is still hit by front-attacks. So yeah, covering is a nice thing. I don't think any class should be able to cover, though, so it's not just position but also a certain competence to do it right.

There still have to be skills that allow the tank to "turn around" the mob when it's going for someone else. I imagine it would be very difficult to get between the mob and the archer when it is already running there. No chance really before the archer is getting hit.

So in short:
* Make positioning more important in general.
* Allow enmity to be generated from other places than right in front of the mob (i.e. provoke or damage).
* Only tank classes/jobs should be competent to cover other players. (Not sure if a skill should be necessary there.)

[Akuun]

A brief lesson on this skills. In the early days of gaming/online gaming, dungeons and areas you could wander around were separated into small rooms. However there wasn't much you could do in these rooms; there weren't grids or maps. This made combat a problem if you wanted to protect someone... you couldn't get in the way, form a wall, block something off etc.

That's how provokes came about.

Fast forward to today. You can move around. You can position yourself. Squishes can kite and do if they know what they are doing. In other words, the genre has evolved over the last 30 years.

So I suggest a novel idea: get rid of skills that build hate and actually make players kite/position themselves correctly. Likewise change the AI a little accordingly. If a player gets in a mobs way it'll either:

1. Switch targets to the player that is in the way.
2. Go around.
3. Switch to ranged attacks if possible.
4. Try to find an easier target to get to.

Basically make the mobs act like a player in a PvP setting in how a player would pick and change targets. For example if a player has lost health from another mob, the first mob might abandon its target (if it's smart enough, dumb ones might not) and go after the weaker player. If a player just got healed or a defensive buff, the mob might try to find easier pickings.

I think that this is a good idea for two reasons:
1. Gets rid of an outdated mechanic.
2. Teaches players to act and position themselves more like they would in a pvp environment where you can't just count on the tanks to build hate all day.

There is only one mmo that I'm aware of that uses this type of mechanic, it's called Dungeons and Dragons Online or DDO for short, in this game they have such a mechanic, and it is exploited regularly, but I guess you could go play it and see if this is really what you want. DDO is free to download and free to play so no worries about costs.

Enjoy

[Peregrine]

The game's got to be built from conception to include ideas like this, and as people have already said positioning as a reason for failure is something the population has already tried in a more simple fashion and still rejected (thief, FFXI). It's not fun. It's just frustrating.

[Chronic]

Stupid suggestion move on

[Flower]

I completely disagree with the whole idea.

[Issachar]

Bad idea.

Hate management exists for a reason.

[Dubont]

I disagree with the OP. Without hate management, this game would sink lower than it already is. Sure, the chaos of being in a party may be fun for a bit, but repeatedly dying just because a TANK wouldn't have the abilities to TANK would surely drive people away.