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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abriael View Post
    Nope. It's about not knowing what you're talking about
    declaring someone "doesn't know what they're talking about" doesn't make it so.



    Look no further for a completely unfitting example that describes a completely different situation, that mind you has already been explained in this thread and a million of other times.
    It is a completely FITting example. You are just in denial.

    FFXI was limited by the PS1 for the simple fact that the PS1 was the *lead platform*. The game was developed for PS1 and then ported to PC. Its core assets were designed for the the PS1 and could not be upgraded to PC standards unless they were completely remade for scratch.
    The game's assets are not the problem. Lack of memory and lack of hard disk space on a fixed platform were the problem. There were tons of things they couldn't do with the game purely because they had used up all the memory of the PS2 already.

    This problem does not appear when PC is the lead platform and the game is only ported to consoles, as assets can be downgraded easily and as much as you want to fit ONLY the console version, while the PC version can remain untouched.
    That's all well and good but why bother releasing an inferior version? A PC capable of running the game doesn't cost much more than a game console. There's no reason to do it. Your game controllers work on the PC. Your PC connects to a TV. You can play on the couch with a controller regardless of the platform. Your PC can be upgraded so you can stay on the same platform without buying entirely new hardware.

    It's no different from any other games made for consoles and ported to PC. Unless the developer is willing to do a lot of additional work on them, they're bad for PC standards. See Skyrim and many others.
    It's very different from any other games because those games usually aren't extended and upgraded beyond some DLC that was already planned before the game was released.

    Your point about MMORPGs needing an upgradable platform is equally and completely off mark. A MMORPG that runs on PC on consoles doesn't even need to run on the same engine to run seamlessly on the same server. All that needs to be common between the two platforms is the data flow about characters, enemies and variable elements and the collision map so that a character doesn't look stuck inside a wall on the other platform. That's it.
    I can think of one game in existence that runs on multiple engines for multiple platforms, and that's Skylanders. But it's not really even the same game on each platform- it's completely different on each.

    My point about MMORPGs needing an upgradable platform is completely ON the mark. Unless you want an MMORPG that has a hard cap on its lifespan, they should not be released on platforms that can not be extneded and upgraded just like the game can. While it's true that you can partially offset this by building the client from the ground up for each platform instead of just porting it, that takes a LOT more resources. You also run into a problem where if the assets aren't the same, it takes much longer to release patches and it's much harder to release them at the same time for all platforms. You end up making the "lead platform" players wait for a patch while it gets remade for each other platform.

    You sir, using personal attacks does not add to your argument. I am not a platform elitist. I own many different platforms, and I play particular kinds of games on each one. I bought a Wii, 3DS and later the Wii U on day one of their launches. Hell, I'm playing Fire Emblem: Awakening as I write this post.
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  2. #2
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    Abriael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alhanelem View Post
    declaring someone "doesn't know what they're talking about" doesn't make it so.
    No. Your misguided arguments make it so.

    It is a completely FITting example. You are just in denial.
    It doesn't fit because the lead platforms are switched. It's a very basic and understandable concept.

    The game's assets are not the problem. Lack of memory and lack of hard disk space on a fixed platform were the problem. There were tons of things they couldn't do with the game purely because they had used up all the memory of the PS2 already.
    That's because the PS2 was the *lead development platform*. having the inferior platform as the lead development platform forces the developer to be held to the lowest common denominator. Having the superior platform as the lead simply does not.

    That's all well and good but why bother releasing an inferior version?
    Because it opens the game to an IMMENSELY BIGGER fanbase than that of PC gamers (and one that is very sensitive to the Final Fantasy franchise at it), meaning more players, more profits, and more support on the long run. Again. Basic principle.

    It's a principle called: 70+ million potential customers worldwide.

    A PC capable of running the game doesn't cost much more than a game console.
    Only twice as much on the bare minimum. Sorry, but you're running out of excuses.

    My point about MMORPGs needing an upgradable platform is completely ON the mark.
    You saying so doesn't make it so. You've been told why it's off mark, and you really have no argument.

    The PS3 can't limit PC in any way. Several people, including Yoshida, already explained it to you. You seem to think to know better, but hello? You don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    Memory limitations is why zones are split into smaller parts, because PS3 can't load a whole region in its RAM.
    Nope. Zones have been split to reduce load on the servers. It has nothing to do with memory limitations, as assets are streamed. Games don't need to load all the assets of a zone into the ram anymore. if it did, even 4 gigs wouldn't nearly be enough.
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    Last edited by Abriael; 02-25-2013 at 06:30 AM.

  3. #3
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    Ladon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abriael View Post
    Nope. Zones have been split to reduce load on the servers. It has nothing to do with memory limitations, as assets are streamed. Games don't need to load all the assets of a zone into the ram anymore. if it did, even 4 gigs wouldn't nearly be enough.
    That's part of it but there are methods to deal with this in a seamless world as well. They were also obviously split to deal with memory limitations as well.

    Also you can't really stream the assets of a MMO or any online game for that matter very well because it's too expensive to keep track of what you would need to server side so that the client is able to stream in the asset before it is displayed. Streaming is only realistic when each display frame is predictable. MMOs are anything but this.
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    Last edited by Ladon; 02-25-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  4. #4
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    Abriael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladon View Post
    That's part of it. They were also obviously split to deal with memory limitations.

    Also you can't really stream the assets of a MMO or any online game for that matter very well because it's too expensive to keep track of what you would need to server side so that the client is able to stream in the asset before it is displayed. Streaming is only realistic when each display frame is predictable. MMOs are anything but this.
    Almost all modern MMORPGs do it without a single problem. Streaming the assets is very possible, and in *very few games* each display frame is predictable.

    There's absolutely no way all the assets for a zone can be fully stored in the ram of even most PCs, even more so on the much more limited video ram. Most modern MMOS are designed to be able to run on cards with 512 Mb.

    The lesser predictability of a MMORPG (that isn't even so relevant, because the only really unpredictable assets are player character assets, that of course have nothing to do with zones) can be addressed by raising the level of pre-streaming.

    Server load is the whole picture.
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    Last edited by Abriael; 02-25-2013 at 07:00 AM.

  5. #5
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    Ladon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abriael View Post
    Almost all modern MMORPGs do it without a single problem. Streaming the assets is very possible, and in *very few games* each display frame is predictable.

    There's absolutely no way all the assets for a zone can be fully stored in the ram of even most PCs, even more so on the much more limited video ram. Most modern MMOS are designed to be able to run on cards with 512 Mb.

    The lesser predictability of a MMORPG (that isn't even so relevant, because the only really unpredictable assets are player character assets, that of course have nothing to do with zones) can be addressed by raising the level of pre-streaming.

    Server load is the whole picture.
    You can't stream common assets, this is why games have minimum memory requirements to begin with. You could stream local assets but you'd still need to keep your common asset memory size constant for performance reasons.

    Also I don't really see any evidence the ARR engine is streaming any assets except LOD. That will save on mipmapping memory requirements and nothing much else.
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  6. #6
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    Kallera's Avatar
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    The PS3 launch provides a new audience with which to sell the game to. It would have been a lot harder to justify making 2.0 if they only had the pc crowd to deal with. (As in, those that have played 1.0 and have made their judgements already.)
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