I sort of wish players could only choose one job.

[Req]

You're still not understanding what I'm saying. The consequences for our failure is death. Permanent death and the end of the world. No more game to play. That's why that doesn't happen. Game over, finito, done. So you want perma-death in this game?


Again, the alternative is perma death. Deletion of character and destruction of the world.


No, I've addressed this.

At this point, you're literally only seeing what your side in any good point and ignoring the rest, as the rest of the posters on this thread will attest to.


Which is determined by the observational skill and experience of the observer, which is influenced by how many stories they've read or seen or heard. Which is why an english literature professor can spot the plot devices in any book, an artist can spot the techniques a painting has, a cook can determine the ingredients and methods of cooking in a food, etc. Again:

But as all these experts in their field knows, just because it's easily spotted, doesn't mean it's contrived. They also know:



No, I'm afraid that's just you. Neither my friends, my wife, my linkshells ever felt that we've "Gotta catch 'em all" (And believe me, I know you've gotta catch them all. I'm trying to in the current generation of pokemon before gen 6 comes out.). It's just the players that rammed through things, got power leveled, got their ls to do quests for them instead of struggling for it or a mixture of the previous, that felt that way. Cause that's how they want to play or that's the only way they know how to play. The purpose of the game, which is not only transparent, but actually told to you, in words, by many NPC's, is to work together. No one was suppose to level all the jobs. No one was suppose to get all the crafts. We were suppose to do what we wanted/liked and work together. Since you've missed that point, I HIGHLY suggest you reevaluate what game you're playing and how you play.


*sigh* you really don't know anything about the creative process, do you? I've covered this already... This is showing, once again, that it's not the game that's dull, it's you. I would explain why it's impossible to do this, but that's a whole college class upon itself. Go take a class in writing, literature, art concepts or composition and you'll know why it's not possible. And, seriously, asking them to be 100% is rather unfair considering everything you do isn't 100% either. (i.e. yes, I'm saying you're not perfect. If you try to refute this, we'll all know what type of person you are.)


Yep. So basically, they were added later, via short notice, in a world/system that didn't plan or had a spot for them. So, time and storyline constraints. As mentioned in:



Seriously? So you're saying that npc's will comment on the tatooes on our face? The color of our hair? The pointiness of the ears? And that will affect the story line or how the npc's will treat us? You' yourself have complained about how dull this is and how this is a "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" concept and now you're saying it's not the case? The quests are interchangeable among the players. That makes the characters we play, *templates*.


No, no it doesn't. You're telling the story teller to do all the work. The greatest immersive story can fail if the user refuses acknowledge it. You can't force a person that doesn't want to be immersed into the story to be immersed. Unless you're thinking of games like SAO which jacks directly into your mind, alters your sense and, most importantly, doesn't exist yet. I mean, how believable is it that a person whom trains with a polearm all day can suddenly spawn fire by jumping down really hard. Or that a chocobo can pop out of anywhere when it somehow hears your whistle? Art and stories depend on things like synesthesia for immersion. But it's a trick of the mind. If you don't let yourself get fooled by it, it won't happen. (by the very definition of "trick of the mind.")

Covered: a point which you, once again, have ignored. Even in your own rebuttal of this original statement:

in which you replied.


See? You really aren't seeing anything but what you want to see. It's not that the system is flawed (well, it is because nothing's perfect. But the flaws aren't the contribution to your issued.). It's you. It's your lack of understanding of the concept, of the world. And frankly, it's your laziness to understand. Your mother tends horses, so that's a kin or learning a martial art? (which I have... 3 of them...) Because it's the right circumstances, it's unrealistic? But on the other hand you do want to be a drg, blm, whm, etc? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Seriously, you're like one of those people that call up to tech support and goes "my computer doesn't work." And when they ask any question, your only answer is "I don't know. Don't you know?" And then gets mad when they can't fix your issue over the phone.



Covered in the above and previous responses.


Lol, don't flatter yourself. When I was growing up, 1 out of ever 4 kid has taken martial arts (I'm chinese, if case you haven't figured it out. Wasn't born in the US.). And half of them were able to break bricks with your bare hands. Even I was able to do the splits by the age of 7(and that's with me coming late to the party). But that's obviously not "realistic" enough for you so it didn't happen, right? Again, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophies. Just because something is outside of your own little world, and I do have to stress this, from everything you've posted, it is very little, doesn't make it unrealistic.


Again, this was addressed, what you've considered as improbable, is not to everyone else. I've pointed out how not improbable it is and you've just passed by it. And how the most improbable things in game are there because there's no other way. Besides:
1) The premise of the game of final fantasy (which I've stated many times before, which you haven't yet acknowledged) is that we are the heroes of a people/era. The very game is about an improbable concept. To want to play an improbable concept but complain that it's improbable? You really need to rethink your approach to games.
2) If you're referring to improbable realism of Aristotle. A) that's an argument from authority fallacy. B) He was referring to an approach to literature. You know, *fiction*. That was not a statement of grand law, but a dogma, a trend of the times. If the dogma of his times where true, women wouldn't have civil rights and things like Lord of the Ring, Fahrenheit 451 and Animal Farm would be considered "bad literature". Along with any and all of Issac Assimov's concepts, star wars, star trek, dungeons and dragons and hence, final fantasy.

Again, all this has very little to do with the fact that 1 job doesn't mean it's more realistic. We're all trying to get you to see something besides your views that you're stuck on. But I guess we all need to take the old saying to heart. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Anyways, I'm done with this thread. Just about everything in this post has been a repeat of something I said before but in a different way with different facts and citation, which you've, time and again, just didn't bother acknowledging. If you want to spend your life thinking that everything you don't know about, see or understand is "unrealistic" and therefore "not fitting to your standards", then I suppose, it's not our job to change your views. But just know that we tried. We tried to bring a little more joy into your life. And know that on days, when you find yourself dissatisfied with life. It's not life that's the problem. It's just you and your life.

You can tell this guy means serious business by the amount of effort he is putting into these posts on an internet forum.

[Ryokyu]

lol Ryo.. So much passion in that voice.

hahaha hey alt! i know right XD

[KyahAlmasy]

You're still not understanding what I'm saying. The consequences for our failure is death. Permanent death and the end of the world. No more game to play. That's why that doesn't happen. Game over, finito, done. So you want perma-death in this game?

Again, the alternative is perma death. Deletion of character and destruction of the world.

My argument has never had anything to do with my feelings toward the "death" mechanic in FFXIV. You're the one who brought it up as an example of how our characters do fail occasionally, and now I'm explaining (Again) that since that mechanic is not acknowledged in the plot that it's not a valid.

Just like in any other FF game, their deaths are not canonical because in a realistic sense it would be as you put it " Game over, finito, done."

Your sense of direction in this "Debate" seems to have no goal beyond your desire to be right. The points you're trying to make aren't even relevant to our conversation. I believe I'll make this my last post to you, because now you're just coming off as a troll.

Which is determined by the observational skill and experience of the observer, which is influenced by how many stories they've read or seen or heard. Which is why an english literature professor can spot the plot devices in any book, an artist can spot the techniques a painting has, a cook can determine the ingredients and methods of cooking in a food, etc. Again:

You're wrong.

Knowing a story, game, etc is bad is different than knowing WHY they're bad. When someone leaves a poorly developed movie unsatisfied do you think they know exactly why they disliked it? That they did not relate to the character or the plot devices were way too forced? No, and while they may not posses the experience to point out every flaw, but that doesn't change the result. This is why we have "Critics" who are paid large amounts of money to review these productions and explain the errors and what exactly made the movie bad.

Again your response leaves me with the impression that you know very little, to nothing about what you're talking about or else I wouldn't be having to explain any of this to you.

No, I'm afraid that's just you. Neither my friends, my wife, my linkshells ever felt that we've "Gotta catch 'em all" (And believe me, I know you've gotta catch them all. I'm trying to in the current generation of pokemon before gen 6 comes out.). It's just the players that rammed through things, got power leveled, got their ls to do quests for them instead of struggling for it or a mixture of the previous, that felt that way. Cause that's how they want to play or that's the only way they know how to play. The purpose of the game, which is not only transparent, but actually told to you, in words, by many NPC's, is to work together. No one was suppose to level all the jobs. No one was suppose to get all the crafts. We were suppose to do what we wanted/liked and work together. Since you've missed that point, I HIGHLY suggest you reevaluate what game you're playing and how you play.

Oh I guess it's only me. *looks down*

It's not a matter of realism or fantasy. It's a matter of enjoyable depth and story. There's virtually no substance to each of the jobs, nor to the way a character enters or pursues their paths. The post above I said I agreed with said nothing of forcing the job limitation as a rule; merely that the present system seemed shallow, stale, and allowed little character immersion. I have trouble seeing how wanting to see such conditions improved would be a fatal dose of realism.

Perhaps I should have assumed that agreeing with a post would be taken as agreeing with every quote by its author. My mistake.

If this makes my position any easier to snipe:
- I enjoy the ability to have as many jobs as I want, but through a vivid feeling of my own innovation and experiences (which first requires game mechanics that allow such) paired with mentorship and world archetypes, rather than a mere 'collect them all' set of situational tools that take little time to master.
- I find issue with the acquisition and lack of adaptation of abilities and their motifs, not with the armory nor multi-job systems.

It's my hopes too that everything will be more flushed out and feel like the kind of story SE usually tells full of lots of intricate characters.

It shouldn't be THAT easy to get to level.

Obviously I'm not alone in this sentiment. The quests behind the jobs were trite, shallow and allowed little to no immersion for the player. Unlike some of the previous quests that gave me goosebumps or truly made me feel for the characters I met, the ones for the jobs left me with the same impression I'd get after watching Jessica running down the highway naked.

Seriously? So you're saying that npc's will comment on the tatooes on our face? The color of our hair? The pointiness of the ears? And that will affect the story line or how the npc's will treat us? You' yourself have complained about how dull this is and how this is a "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" concept and now you're saying it's not the case? The quests are interchangeable among the players. That makes the characters we play, *templates*.

The appearance of our characters is a direct projection of how we the players wish to be seen and plays a large part on how we observe and react to what happens to them. They are a personification of the player and the only thing we can truly control.

No, no it doesn't. You're telling the story teller to do all the work. The greatest immersive story can fail if the user refuses acknowledge it. You can't force a person that doesn't want to be immersed into the story to be immersed. Unless you're thinking of games like SAO which jacks directly into your mind, alters your sense and, most importantly, doesn't exist yet. I mean, how believable is it that a person whom trains with a polearm all day can suddenly spawn fire by jumping down really hard. Or that a chocobo can pop out of anywhere when it somehow hears your whistle? Art and stories depend on things like synesthesia for immersion. But it's a trick of the mind. If you don't let yourself get fooled by it, it won't happen. (by the very definition of "trick of the mind.")

Now you're not making any sense at all. It's not about "Forcing" someone to immerse it's making them "want" to immerse by creating a story that draws them in. After all, "Story telling" is what Final Fantasy has grown famous for, telling intricate stories with characters we can relate to, that have depth and pull us in. There's a larger demand for maintaining a sense of realism because unlike gameplay the story's main purpose is to immerse the player.

And again, there's a difference in "Expectations" when it comes to the plot and gameplay. I understand it's a game, and that we can only reach a certain level of immersion when we play, because gameplay mechanics have to operate in a unrealistic way so the player can enjoy the game. No one wants to wait for their chocobo to run from a stable everytime they need to ride it. And really with the Dragoon reference? This is Final Fantasy, magic is commonplace.

Like I mentioned earlier, the events that allow our characters to gain these jobs, alone

I'm quite sure that you don't really understand what this means. Each one of the characters that take part in the quest to attain the job have dedicated their entire life to reach where they are. The odds for a complete stranger to not only be lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time, but also posses the skills necessary to take on the job is extremely unlikely. The likelihood for this to happen to our character once, (Though unprobable) isn't so far-fetched because after all this is a game. But the likeliness that our character possesses the skills and luck to master not only one of these life-long jobs, but all of them? Well that's just absurd.

See? You really aren't seeing anything but what you want to see. It's not that the system is flawed (well, it is because nothing's perfect. But the flaws aren't the contribution to your issued.). It's you. It's your lack of understanding of the concept, of the world. And frankly, it's your laziness to understand. Your mother tends horses, so that's a kin or learning a martial art? (which I have... 3 of them...) Because it's the right circumstances, it's unrealistic? But on the other hand you do want to be a drg, blm, whm, etc? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Seriously, you're like one of those people that call up to tech support and goes "my computer doesn't work." And when they ask any question, your only answer is "I don't know. Don't you know?" And then gets mad when they can't fix your issue over the phone.

This portion of your response is ironic considering your poor comprehension skills. Nix mentioned that she rode horses, and I mentioned that my mom tends to horses. (Which common sense would suggest that I've rode them myself.) And learning martial arts is hardly "akin" to what hardships the characters in FFXIV have gone through to reach that point in their life that our character reaches in a substantially smaller amount of time. And unless you're trying to suggest that you're as good, or got even better than the people who taught you in a similar time frame of our characters than your point really isn't going anywhere.

Lol, don't flatter yourself. When I was growing up, 1 out of ever 4 kid has taken martial arts (I'm chinese, if case you haven't figured it out. Wasn't born in the US.). And half of them were able to break bricks with your bare hands. Even I was able to do the splits by the age of 7(and that's with me coming late to the party). But that's obviously not "realistic" enough for you so it didn't happen, right? Again, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophies. Just because something is outside of your own little world, and I do have to stress this, from everything you've posted, it is very little, doesn't make it unrealistic.

How is training for Martial arts from a young age correlated to the unlikeliness of our characters mastering abilities in months? That would be as likely as me meeting you, and after seeing everything you could do with your experience in Martial Arts, I train for a week and become better than you. Is it possible? Yes. Probable? Highly unlikely. Though you seem to be under the impression that becomes it's possible that its realistic, and that no other possible perspective is reasonable. How laughable.

And I'm sure if this were narrated in a book, the unrealistic nature of a character capable of doing something like that wouldn't be taken seriously.

Again, this was addressed, what you've considered as improbable, is not to everyone else. I've pointed out how not improbable it is and you've just passed by it. And how the most improbable things in game are there because there's no other way. Besides:
1) The premise of the game of final fantasy (which I've stated many times before, which you haven't yet acknowledged) is that we are the heroes of a people/era. The very game is about an improbable concept. To want to play an improbable concept but complain that it's improbable? You really need to rethink your approach to games.
2) If you're referring to improbable realism of Aristotle. A) that's an argument from authority fallacy. B) He was referring to an approach to literature. You know, *fiction*. That was not a statement of grand law, but a dogma, a trend of the times. If the dogma of his times where true, women wouldn't have civil rights and things like Lord of the Ring, Fahrenheit 451 and Animal Farm would be considered "bad literature". Along with any and all of Issac Assimov's concepts, star wars, star trek, dungeons and dragons and hence, final fantasy.

Aristotle's theory is applied in modern day all the time. "Improbable possibilities" and "Probable Possibilities" which are clearly separated by their likelihood to ever achieve.

Probable impossibility - Man on the moon
Improbable possibilities - Woman getting pregnant if the doctor says she's sterile.

A probable impossibility is to be preferred to improbable possibilities because one is the reaching for what is thought at the time to be unattainable and unrealistic where as the other is mundane and although not likely to occur is known, and seen to happen.

I'm quite confident that you have no idea what you're talking about, and your poor comprehension skills are to blame for that I guess. It's not that you don't want to understand it's that you simply lack the ability to. Trying any further to educate you would be like playing Mozart for a treefrog. Have fun in your ignorance.

[Nix]

I have to apologize, I'm not sure that when I listed a few of my talents that my point got across. D:

When I said I rode horses, could cook and play music, I didn't want to define them as skills that were difficult to learn... on the contrary they are quite easy for me. But it was trying to allude to the fact that a person could learn many things (difficulty aside) and it'd suck to be only allowed to learn one of these things or be defined only by that one. I'm sorry if this point was missed ; ;

I know the conversation has come a long way since then, and I can see the points made on both sides of the argument but falling to personal attacks and petty bickering won't solve anything. (I'm not singling you out for this Kyah, please don't think that ^^).

I think that this discussion has reached its peak, I don't think that there is anything more that could be said that hasn't been said already, and while everyone has stated valid points we can't possibly comment on how things are in ARR.

I agree that jobquests were kinda wishy-washy in 1.0, and I'd really like to see this built upon. I can't say anything about the storylines and such because of NDA, but in time everyone will be able to experience this with Beta just around the corner.

I found the storylines in 1.0 a little drab in some parts so I would roleplay a bit to build my character up, while this is not fun for everyone I do think that people should give it a bash sometime. It added a really fun element to gameplay for me as it does for many others.

I am hoping for a deeper, more engaging storyline in 2.0, but we will have to resign ourselves to the fact that in order for a character to learn all of these skills, we are going to have the 'hero complex' and be there at the right time, learn our skills well and come out on top in the end.

I was going to say something more, but the thought escaped me . .. If I can think of it again I'll definitely post haha.

Take it easy guys♪

[Sanne]

Most people will mostly focus at 1 to 3 jobs, some will master them all, but probably still stick with few favorite jobs.

We are great in things we like, if we change to something we don't like, we won't be our best. Our characters will reflect that.

I always loved games were you can decide your own path, and switch paths.
Sometimes you come to a point in your life that you decide to walk a new road, and sometimes you find out that new road is much better fitting for you.

We usually start with something that sounds great in our ears and mind, but later discover it is not really as great as we thought.

I think it is great we have the ability to adept our characters in such a way.

Some will stay mostly with 1 job, but most people will switch around a lot before they find their place.

Yes it is true we can be anything we want to be, and to me that is a positive thing.
I like the idea that my character will grow and try out different things.
For me this is more realistic then being stuck to one job and later decide to make a new character.

People will remember a good player, no matter if they can easily replace a job.

Unique is hard in a mmorpg, many other players have the same job, no matter if you can job change or not.

I remember a thread a long time ago were someone also wanted that unique feeling of 1 job. He used as example to proudly show his new armor, and then some party members job changed and showed they also had that armor.
He felt bad, and not special anymore.

But people who love gaining many jobs etc still could change characters and show they also got that.

Being special just doesn't fit in a mmorpg, it just doesn't work. If you think you are special, then it is an illusion, because there are many that are equally good at the job.

We all try our best, even the people who aren't good gamers do their best, we all love to hear we did a good job.
Why can't we just enjoy this online world together? Be happy for each other?

I don't need the best players around me, I just want people around me who make fun together, who are nice, who help, such people I always remember.

It isn't about the job but about the character for me.

People who want to play 1 job should do that, maybe getting some skills from other jobs, if needed, but stick with what you like the most, that is the only good way to play.

Everyone got their own opinion of course. And that is why it is hard to understand other people, because we don't experience it the same, we all have our own values.
Who am I to say you are wrong? I can just tell I experience it in a different way.

[ZakarnRosewood]

Obviously I'm not alone in this sentiment. The quests behind the jobs were trite, shallow and allowed little to no immersion for the player. Unlike some of the previous quests that gave me goosebumps or truly made me feel for the characters I met, the ones for the jobs left me with the same impression I'd get after watching Jessica running down the highway naked.

To put a little context back into my statement I do agree that 1.0 lacked a little oomph, I also have taken into consideration all the other factors surrounding 1.0, such as, failed launch, restructured the team, create a game plan, work with the fans, rebooting the game from the ground up while maintaining the existing failed one, Greatly improved 1.0 to a playable state, etc and so on. As well the game is done, gone, never to return, they burned it with fire, the lifeforce of the equine has expired, 2+ months ago. I do not agree that this topic really needs to continue being abused.

Context for my quoted comment will be provided below.

I'm thankful they even bothered to put them in in the first place considering at that point they had already begun the work on ARR. They put it in for us to try, as a fan service. You do realize they could have just shut down so they could have focused on the rebuild instead. Ya, a lot of 1.0 felt rushed. Are you surprised? Do you think this will be exactly the same in ARR?

Its not even they want something that can never happen, they were just pointing out a complaint they had about 1.0, which is not irrelevant since its now dead and gone. Somehow they got it in their head that a single job system would be the solution to their perceived issue. It all boiled down to them just wanting SE to take their time with the story and make it more flushed out and "worthwhile". At least that's what I think I eventually got out of the interactions.

If all you are doing is lamenting about something thats dead and gone, I apologize for interrupting. But if you are expressing this as a reflection of what ARR will be like, then i would like to see your crystal ball. As of yet, no one aside from dev's or possibly Alpha testers "might" have had a small sneak peak as to the plans for the rebuild. I'm pretty sure this team will be paying more attention to detail because so far they have done more for FFXIV then the first team ever did. They did it amongst heavy fire from Fans and critics alike no less.

[Zezlar]

Job quests in 1.0 were shitty. There's really no other way to put it. I'm hoping they go a different route in ARR that isn't essentially the same quest over and over.

[Pandastirfry]

okay... I know it is a MAJOR nit pick but...

"Art and stories depend on things like synesthesia for immersion."

Err.. Synesthesia is a neurological condition that is involuntary, one of the most common forms of which is color-graphemic synesthesia, letters or numbers are perceived as inherently colored.

Very rarely would a story teller rely on a condition that an estimated 1 out of 23 people have and presents in various forms, for immersion

[valetarkus]

How is this thread still going?

[Shurrikhan]

So... a character having all of the abilities of a White Mage doesn't make them a White Mage.
You heard it here first folks!

I think you just read that in the exact opposite of what she just pointed out.
"That would be like"-->prior mentioned idea--> job being encapsulated only by role, in spite of their obvious job-referencing abilities.