I sort of wish players could only choose one job.

[Laume]

Us dying and rechallenging a quest a dozen times is inconsequential because it doesn't reflect in the game at all because it isn't canonical to the story.

You're still not understanding what I'm saying. The consequences for our failure is death. Permanent death and the end of the world. No more game to play. That's why that doesn't happen. Game over, finito, done. So you want perma-death in this game?

In plenty of instances where the NPC's even witnesses our death (Sometimes dying themselves) and failure during a quest they'll talk as if you never failed at all when you eventually finish it. According to the "Canon" our characters have never failed. Which has nothing to do with us, as the player failing. The mechanics I'm referring to are the ones that govern the plot and how the game operates.

Again, the alternative is perma death. Deletion of character and destruction of the world.

To be honest you've sort of refuted your own point in the same post. If we're playing an RPG game and lose in a fight, does the plot or the characters in the game acknowledge the loss? Can you use that instance as an example of the characters strengths or weaknesses? No, you can't because your loss during gameplay is "inconsequential" to the RPG, just as it is in FFXIV. Even the same characters you're playing as don't acknowledge their own loss.

No, I've addressed this.

In short, if you lose a fight, if this was a console game, you would have seen the "game over" screen and had to load frm the last save point. But since this is a mmorpg, there are no manual save points, you start at the auto save point of before the fight. And hence that's why you're allowed to view the same cut scene over and over again, which can "canonically" never happen.

At this point, you're literally only seeing what your side in any good point and ignoring the rest, as the rest of the posters on this thread will attest to.

No, what makes a plot device contrived is when you can easily spot it's use.

Which is determined by the observational skill and experience of the observer, which is influenced by how many stories they've read or seen or heard. Which is why an english literature professor can spot the plot devices in any book, an artist can spot the techniques a painting has, a cook can determine the ingredients and methods of cooking in a food, etc. Again:

Cartman: Dude, The Simpsons have done everything already. Who cares?
Stan: Yeah, and they've been on the air for like, thirteen years. Of course they've done everything.
Mr. Garrison: Every idea's been done, Butters, even before The Simpsons.
Chef: Yeah. In fact, that episode was a rip-off of a Twilight Zone episode.

But as all these experts in their field knows, just because it's easily spotted, doesn't mean it's contrived. They also know:

This is a game, made by human, on a deadline, with a budget. There are stronger stories and there are weaker stories. If you have a way to create top-knotch, intriguing stories 100% of the time, by all means. All of humanity since the invention of the story has been looking for a way to do that.

As someone else mentioned, it doesn't feel genuine and comes off more like "Gotta catch 'em all" which hollows out the plot, and makes its purpose transparent.

No, I'm afraid that's just you. Neither my friends, my wife, my linkshells ever felt that we've "Gotta catch 'em all" (And believe me, I know you've gotta catch them all. I'm trying to in the current generation of pokemon before gen 6 comes out.). It's just the players that rammed through things, got power leveled, got their ls to do quests for them instead of struggling for it or a mixture of the previous, that felt that way. Cause that's how they want to play or that's the only way they know how to play. The purpose of the game, which is not only transparent, but actually told to you, in words, by many NPC's, is to work together. No one was suppose to level all the jobs. No one was suppose to get all the crafts. We were suppose to do what we wanted/liked and work together. Since you've missed that point, I HIGHLY suggest you reevaluate what game you're playing and how you play.

And they did a very good job "jamming" out interesting and diverse stories in the other quests, so why should the Jobs be any different?

*sigh* you really don't know anything about the creative process, do you? I've covered this already... This is showing, once again, that it's not the game that's dull, it's you. I would explain why it's impossible to do this, but that's a whole college class upon itself. Go take a class in writing, literature, art concepts or composition and you'll know why it's not possible. And, seriously, asking them to be 100% is rather unfair considering everything you do isn't 100% either. (i.e. yes, I'm saying you're not perfect. If you try to refute this, we'll all know what type of person you are.)

Well I'll tell you. The Jobs were added as an after thought and weren't as well thought-out as the other quests. They added shallow, trite and equally unlikely sequence of stories for the players to get these new jobs.

Yep. So basically, they were added later, via short notice, in a world/system that didn't plan or had a spot for them. So, time and storyline constraints. As mentioned in:

But the flaws of that is that they *can't* write and check for every possibility. Again, due to time, money, budget, etc, constraints.

Our characters are not the template, the only choices we make that have any effect on our characters in the game is when we initially invent them.

Seriously? So you're saying that npc's will comment on the tatooes on our face? The color of our hair? The pointiness of the ears? And that will affect the story line or how the npc's will treat us? You' yourself have complained about how dull this is and how this is a "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" concept and now you're saying it's not the case? The quests are interchangeable among the players. That makes the characters we play, *templates*.

After that we follow a set path designed for us by the creators. In order for us, the players, to "project" ourselves and immerse is to create a convincing illusion that we are in control. That alone relies solely on how believable the story is.

No, no it doesn't. You're telling the story teller to do all the work. The greatest immersive story can fail if the user refuses acknowledge it. You can't force a person that doesn't want to be immersed into the story to be immersed. Unless you're thinking of games like SAO which jacks directly into your mind, alters your sense and, most importantly, doesn't exist yet. I mean, how believable is it that a person whom trains with a polearm all day can suddenly spawn fire by jumping down really hard. Or that a chocobo can pop out of anywhere when it somehow hears your whistle? Art and stories depend on things like synesthesia for immersion. But it's a trick of the mind. If you don't let yourself get fooled by it, it won't happen. (by the very definition of "trick of the mind.")

For example, in a horror movie let's say Jessica is driving down a long highway that winds through the countryside. Uh oh, her phone suddenly has no connection, and she's about to run out of gas, oh and she's naked. Oh and there's a rapist/serial killer who just so happens to have been running rampant on that exact highway. She pulls over and runs down a long empty field completely naked and even though that highway runs on endlessly through several states the killer just so happens to be waiting exactly where she stopped. The plot devices to set her up for disaster are just so unbelievable and contrived that it becomes trite and distasteful.

Covered: a point which you, once again, have ignored. Even in your own rebuttal of this original statement:

If they don't allow us to be at the right place at the right time, the truth is we would never become a drg or whm or blm or any of the other jobs. The whole server would have 1 whm, 1 drg, 1 blm, etc. Which, while realistic, makes for a poor experience for the players that are not the whm, drg, blm, etc.

in which you replied.

Like I mentioned earlier, the events that allow our characters to gain these jobs, alone (While still, improbable.) isn't the issue. It's that our characters are at the right place and right time for every single one of them.

If they don't allow us to be at the right place at the right time, the truth is we would never become a drg or whm or blm or any of the other jobs. The whole server would have 1 whm, 1 drg, 1 blm, etc. Which, while realistic, makes for a poor experience for the players that are not the whm, drg, blm, etc.

See? You really aren't seeing anything but what you want to see. It's not that the system is flawed (well, it is because nothing's perfect. But the flaws aren't the contribution to your issued.). It's you. It's your lack of understanding of the concept, of the world. And frankly, it's your laziness to understand. Your mother tends horses, so that's a kin or learning a martial art? (which I have... 3 of them...) Because it's the right circumstances, it's unrealistic? But on the other hand you do want to be a drg, blm, whm, etc? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Seriously, you're like one of those people that call up to tech support and goes "my computer doesn't work." And when they ask any question, your only answer is "I don't know. Don't you know?" And then gets mad when they can't fix your issue over the phone.

Though like you mentioned, it's well within the realm of possibility for that to happen. But that certainly does not provide any justification for the improbability of the situation. In terms of FFXIV, the idea that our character always has perfect timing, and never fails is.. well, distasteful and contrived. The stories were poorly constructed, and like a bad horror movie had me rolling my eyes the whole time until I was staring at my own brain wondering what the hell I was even doing.

Covered in the above and previous responses.

I'm starting to believe that our ideas of what is, and isn't "realistic" vary greatly. You believe that anything with a possibility of occurring is "realistic", while I tend to have a more practical mindset on the likelyhood of said instances coming to fruition.

Lol, don't flatter yourself. When I was growing up, 1 out of ever 4 kid has taken martial arts (I'm chinese, if case you haven't figured it out. Wasn't born in the US.). And half of them were able to break bricks with your bare hands. Even I was able to do the splits by the age of 7(and that's with me coming late to the party). But that's obviously not "realistic" enough for you so it didn't happen, right? Again, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophies. Just because something is outside of your own little world, and I do have to stress this, from everything you've posted, it is very little, doesn't make it unrealistic.

Even Aristotle mentioned that instances that are improbable aren't realistic. You can rely on an improbable possibility just as much as you can expect to win the lottery.

Again, this was addressed, what you've considered as improbable, is not to everyone else. I've pointed out how not improbable it is and you've just passed by it. And how the most improbable things in game are there because there's no other way. Besides:
1) The premise of the game of final fantasy (which I've stated many times before, which you haven't yet acknowledged) is that we are the heroes of a people/era. The very game is about an improbable concept. To want to play an improbable concept but complain that it's improbable? You really need to rethink your approach to games.
2) If you're referring to improbable realism of Aristotle. A) that's an argument from authority fallacy. B) He was referring to an approach to literature. You know, *fiction*. That was not a statement of grand law, but a dogma, a trend of the times. If the dogma of his times where true, women wouldn't have civil rights and things like Lord of the Ring, Fahrenheit 451 and Animal Farm would be considered "bad literature". Along with any and all of Issac Assimov's concepts, star wars, star trek, dungeons and dragons and hence, final fantasy.

Again, all this has very little to do with the fact that 1 job doesn't mean it's more realistic. We're all trying to get you to see something besides your views that you're stuck on. But I guess we all need to take the old saying to heart. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Anyways, I'm done with this thread. Just about everything in this post has been a repeat of something I said before but in a different way with different facts and citation, which you've, time and again, just didn't bother acknowledging. If you want to spend your life thinking that everything you don't know about, see or understand is "unrealistic" and therefore "not fitting to your standards", then I suppose, it's not our job to change your views. But just know that we tried. We tried to bring a little more joy into your life. And know that on days, when you find yourself dissatisfied with life. It's not life that's the problem. It's just you and your life.

[Req]

You're still not understanding what I'm saying. The consequences for our failure is death. Permanent death and the end of the world. No more game to play. That's why that doesn't happen. Game over, finito, done. So you want perma-death in this game?


Again, the alternative is perma death. Deletion of character and destruction of the world.


No, I've addressed this.

At this point, you're literally only seeing what your side in any good point and ignoring the rest, as the rest of the posters on this thread will attest to.


Which is determined by the observational skill and experience of the observer, which is influenced by how many stories they've read or seen or heard. Which is why an english literature professor can spot the plot devices in any book, an artist can spot the techniques a painting has, a cook can determine the ingredients and methods of cooking in a food, etc. Again:

But as all these experts in their field knows, just because it's easily spotted, doesn't mean it's contrived. They also know:



No, I'm afraid that's just you. Neither my friends, my wife, my linkshells ever felt that we've "Gotta catch 'em all" (And believe me, I know you've gotta catch them all. I'm trying to in the current generation of pokemon before gen 6 comes out.). It's just the players that rammed through things, got power leveled, got their ls to do quests for them instead of struggling for it or a mixture of the previous, that felt that way. Cause that's how they want to play or that's the only way they know how to play. The purpose of the game, which is not only transparent, but actually told to you, in words, by many NPC's, is to work together. No one was suppose to level all the jobs. No one was suppose to get all the crafts. We were suppose to do what we wanted/liked and work together. Since you've missed that point, I HIGHLY suggest you reevaluate what game you're playing and how you play.


*sigh* you really don't know anything about the creative process, do you? I've covered this already... This is showing, once again, that it's not the game that's dull, it's you. I would explain why it's impossible to do this, but that's a whole college class upon itself. Go take a class in writing, literature, art concepts or composition and you'll know why it's not possible. And, seriously, asking them to be 100% is rather unfair considering everything you do isn't 100% either. (i.e. yes, I'm saying you're not perfect. If you try to refute this, we'll all know what type of person you are.)


Yep. So basically, they were added later, via short notice, in a world/system that didn't plan or had a spot for them. So, time and storyline constraints. As mentioned in:



Seriously? So you're saying that npc's will comment on the tatooes on our face? The color of our hair? The pointiness of the ears? And that will affect the story line or how the npc's will treat us? You' yourself have complained about how dull this is and how this is a "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" concept and now you're saying it's not the case? The quests are interchangeable among the players. That makes the characters we play, *templates*.


No, no it doesn't. You're telling the story teller to do all the work. The greatest immersive story can fail if the user refuses acknowledge it. You can't force a person that doesn't want to be immersed into the story to be immersed. Unless you're thinking of games like SAO which jacks directly into your mind, alters your sense and, most importantly, doesn't exist yet. I mean, how believable is it that a person whom trains with a polearm all day can suddenly spawn fire by jumping down really hard. Or that a chocobo can pop out of anywhere when it somehow hears your whistle? Art and stories depend on things like synesthesia for immersion. But it's a trick of the mind. If you don't let yourself get fooled by it, it won't happen. (by the very definition of "trick of the mind.")

Covered: a point which you, once again, have ignored. Even in your own rebuttal of this original statement:

in which you replied.


See? You really aren't seeing anything but what you want to see. It's not that the system is flawed (well, it is because nothing's perfect. But the flaws aren't the contribution to your issued.). It's you. It's your lack of understanding of the concept, of the world. And frankly, it's your laziness to understand. Your mother tends horses, so that's a kin or learning a martial art? (which I have... 3 of them...) Because it's the right circumstances, it's unrealistic? But on the other hand you do want to be a drg, blm, whm, etc? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Seriously, you're like one of those people that call up to tech support and goes "my computer doesn't work." And when they ask any question, your only answer is "I don't know. Don't you know?" And then gets mad when they can't fix your issue over the phone.



Covered in the above and previous responses.


Lol, don't flatter yourself. When I was growing up, 1 out of ever 4 kid has taken martial arts (I'm chinese, if case you haven't figured it out. Wasn't born in the US.). And half of them were able to break bricks with your bare hands. Even I was able to do the splits by the age of 7(and that's with me coming late to the party). But that's obviously not "realistic" enough for you so it didn't happen, right? Again, there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophies. Just because something is outside of your own little world, and I do have to stress this, from everything you've posted, it is very little, doesn't make it unrealistic.


Again, this was addressed, what you've considered as improbable, is not to everyone else. I've pointed out how not improbable it is and you've just passed by it. And how the most improbable things in game are there because there's no other way. Besides:
1) The premise of the game of final fantasy (which I've stated many times before, which you haven't yet acknowledged) is that we are the heroes of a people/era. The very game is about an improbable concept. To want to play an improbable concept but complain that it's improbable? You really need to rethink your approach to games.
2) If you're referring to improbable realism of Aristotle. A) that's an argument from authority fallacy. B) He was referring to an approach to literature. You know, *fiction*. That was not a statement of grand law, but a dogma, a trend of the times. If the dogma of his times where true, women wouldn't have civil rights and things like Lord of the Ring, Fahrenheit 451 and Animal Farm would be considered "bad literature". Along with any and all of Issac Assimov's concepts, star wars, star trek, dungeons and dragons and hence, final fantasy.

Again, all this has very little to do with the fact that 1 job doesn't mean it's more realistic. We're all trying to get you to see something besides your views that you're stuck on. But I guess we all need to take the old saying to heart. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Anyways, I'm done with this thread. Just about everything in this post has been a repeat of something I said before but in a different way with different facts and citation, which you've, time and again, just didn't bother acknowledging. If you want to spend your life thinking that everything you don't know about, see or understand is "unrealistic" and therefore "not fitting to your standards", then I suppose, it's not our job to change your views. But just know that we tried. We tried to bring a little more joy into your life. And know that on days, when you find yourself dissatisfied with life. It's not life that's the problem. It's just you and your life.

You can tell this guy means serious business by the amount of effort he is putting into these posts on an internet forum.