Quick Poll on Microphones

[SkyeWindbinder]

more like this.
Yes this again.

Awesome song! (thumbs up)

[Almalexia]

You want to talk fallacies? You want to link Wiki articles? This little detour began over a fallacy.

Your criteria for "serious" didn't make sense to me, since you and I have completed all the endgame content XIV had to offer, except I--and my entire group--used text while you used voice. Your claim contradicted my experience and I thought it was interesting.

You have since expanded the scope of your original claim to include all modern MMOs, not just FFXIV, which is valid. But I haven't played every modern MMO and won't speak for things I've never actually done.

Still, regarding XIV, I gave you an actual example of an actual thing that actually happened. I was witness to it with seven other people. It's an objective reality. Defeating Darnus with text is as objectively real as defeating Darnus with voice. It's only subjective as a matter of preference, which is perfectly fine and doesn't diminish or enhance your accomplishments or my own.

I insist we actually discuss things instead of inciting a lock with hostility, arrogance and misplaced, pseudo-intellectual flimflam. I'm invested in XIV as much as you, dude, I give a fuck about these things. Go look at the MNK forum if you don't believe me.

[fusional]

You want to talk fallacies? You want to link Wiki articles? This little detour began over a fallacy.

i never committed that fallacy. i never said people weren't true/real/raiders if they didn't use voice chat. i said, in the context of modern mmos, if you don't use voice chat it's impossible to be *serious* about raiding. if you want to split hairs over my definition of 'serious', that's perfectly valid and we can do that. but don't misrepresent my position.

if i were to say obama isn't a "real skeet shooter" because of X Y Z, then yes- that's the fallacy you referenced. but if i said he's "not a serious skeet shooter" because of X Y Z, it's not. it's different. and it would be difficult to argue he *is* a serious skeet shooter. you COULD argue that, but it wouldn't be easy.

(and don't get it twisted- this example says nothing of my political beliefs)

Your criteria for "serious" didn't make sense to me, since you and I have completed all the endgame content XIV had to offer, except I--and my entire group--used text while you used voice. Your claim contradicted my experience and I thought it was interesting.

how was it contradictory? do you really think our groups are the same, sharing the same experiences? you don't think there's a difference between coordinating a group aiming for world first kills and a group coming along and doing the content weeks or months later, after the strategies have already been totally ironed out, and videos have been posted everywhere for reference?

so when you have no videos to go by and no guides to read, and you're pushing to finish content before anyone else- you don't think that's at all different? you don't think that not only gives us reason to use voice chat, but pretty much requires it if we're *serious* about our goals?

you're trying to say our positions are equivalent when they aren't. and this isn't taking away from your own achievements whatsoever. you get relic, you get white ravens- congrats. more power to you. my LS wishes more people in the community would strive for the same. but the simple fact of the matter is this is effectively false syllogism. "you do endgame and we do endgame, therefore we are both serious about it"

it doesn't work because it's not equivalent. but once again- what you could do here is debate my definition of 'serious', and upon doing so you could very rightfully claim that there are different levels of seriousness and that it isn't all the same. and in doing so, i'd agree and relent on that particular issue.

You have since expanded the scope of your original claim

i did nothing of the sort. i included all modern mmos in the context of my original statement.

But I haven't played every modern MMO and won't speak for things I've never actually done.

good on you. that puts you in the minority around here, and i can assure you any time someone can acknowledge which context they base their position on and which context they can't speak from, it's very much appreciated and helps quite a bit in the pursuit of actual constructive discussion.

i wouldn't bother speaking for the pros and cons of elements in various fighting games because i don't really play many and am not really that into them when i do. i do, however, try quite a lot of MMOs. this makes me come across as a know-it-all at times, but the bottom line is that this forum is an MMO forum and devs are looking to other MMOs for inspiration in their reboot of FFXIV. so the topic comes up a lot. and i happen to have quite a lot of experience with it.

Still, regarding XIV, I gave you an actual example of an actual thing that actually happened. I was witness to it with seven other people. It's an objective reality. Defeating Darnus with text is as objectively real as defeating Darnus with voice. It's only subjective as a matter of preference, which is perfectly fine and doesn't diminish or enhance your accomplishments or my own.

yes, true- you did beat it, and it does prove it's not *necessary* for voice chat. i never said it was necessary, though. i said it was "impossible to be serious"- and again, this leaves room for debate over just what "serious" means, but that doesn't say "impossible to accomplish"

furthermore, as i previously mentioned- the fact that it's possible doesn't mean all experiences are the same. and the word "equal" shouldn't imply i'm comparing 'better' or 'worst'- just that they aren't equivalent. implying our experiences are the same based simply on the fact that we both beat it does disservice to the entire basis for comparison, as the comparison needs to be made on an equal basis *or* context must be provided to allow for an inequality (ie: the fact that we do it without any videos or guides, and try to do it as fast as possible after patch goes live. very few other LSs experience this and as a result they largely experience content differently than we do. this is especially noteworthy in the context of voice chat and other elements which improve performance)

as you said- none of this diminishes your efforts or enhances my own. i agree. however, this makes our efforts and experiences and the resulting perspectives a bit different. and while we can also split hairs over just *how* different- the difference is there nonetheless.

I insist we actually discuss things instead of inciting a lock with hostility, arrogance and misplaced, pseudo-intellectual flimflam. I'm invested in XIV as much as you, dude, I give a fuck about these things. Go look at the MNK forum if you don't believe me.

but discussing things is exactly what i do, until i'm met with (or simply observe) an attitude which isn't conducive to constructive discussion. and you can very clearly see a lot of that here and in any number of other threads. (both examples of me constructively discussing things and people presenting an attitude which isn't conducive to that)

i'm not the best person at interpersonal politics, but i understand systems and logic, and i'm quite good at cutting through to the heart of any matter. details often bore me. i'm much more interesting in sifting through arguments to isolate and argue for the principle. the fact that you're invested and you care and you actually want to discuss things is appreciated, but you also have to understand that *there is such an overwhelming amount of garbage* posted in this forums that i can get tired of it and it makes me short with people.

it's a character weakness i've acknowledged on multiple occasions in the forums, and whenever it comes up i do apologize. i try to work around it, but it's difficult. especially when i do care quite a lot about this game being successful in 2.0 and so many forum regulars, in spite of possibly (probably) having good intentions, seem to be working against this end- whether wittingly or not.

in the end i shouldn't be short with particular people just because i'm tired of reading other people posting floods of stupid shit. it's not your fault, and i'm sorry for that.

that said, though- it is incredibly frustrating when i make a point of carefully choosing my words to say exactly what i mean denotatively (or, if not- at least providing proper context otherwise) only for people to misconstrue and misrepresent my position, happily interjecting their own connotative meanings in its place, only to carry on repeating their own position without context, without base.

devs gave these forums to us to help us provide feedback to improve game quality. but instead people just seem content to use it as a chaotic sounding board for non-constructively throwing biases at each other. and then what's even the point of having the forums? it just makes the devs' jobs exponentially harder, wading through the piles of muck to find a few scattered gold coins.

it reduces them to the gaming equivalent of toshers, and it's pretty irritating to watch unfold.

[Phe]

i never committed that fallacy. i never said people weren't true/real/raiders if they didn't use voice chat. i said, in the context of modern mmos, if you don't use voice chat it's impossible to be *serious* about raiding. if you want to split hairs over my definition of 'serious', that's perfectly valid and we can do that. but don't misrepresent my position.

if i were to say obama isn't a "real skeet shooter" because of X Y Z, then yes- that's the fallacy you referenced. but if i said he's "not a serious skeet shooter" because of X Y Z, it's not. it's different. and it would be difficult to argue he *is* a serious skeet shooter. you COULD argue that, but it wouldn't be easy.

(and don't get it twisted- this example says nothing of my political beliefs)



how was it contradictory? do you really think our groups are the same, sharing the same experiences? you don't think there's a difference between coordinating a group aiming for world first kills and a group coming along and doing the content weeks or months later, after the strategies have already been totally ironed out, and videos have been posted everywhere for reference?

so when you have no videos to go by and no guides to read, and you're pushing to finish content before anyone else- you don't think that's at all different? you don't think that not only gives us reason to use voice chat, but pretty much requires it if we're *serious* about our goals?

you're trying to say our positions are equivalent when they aren't. and this isn't taking away from your own achievements whatsoever. you get relic, you get white ravens- congrats. more power to you. my LS wishes more people in the community would strive for the same. but the simple fact of the matter is this is effectively false syllogism. "you do endgame and we do endgame, therefore we are both serious about it"

it doesn't work because it's not equivalent. but once again- what you could do here is debate my definition of 'serious', and upon doing so you could very rightfully claim that there are different levels of seriousness and that it isn't all the same. and in doing so, i'd agree and relent on that particular issue.



i did nothing of the sort. i included all modern mmos in the context of my original statement.



good on you. that puts you in the minority around here, and i can assure you any time someone can acknowledge which context they base their position on and which context they can't speak from, it's very much appreciated and helps quite a bit in the pursuit of actual constructive discussion.

i wouldn't bother speaking for the pros and cons of elements in various fighting games because i don't really play many and am not really that into them when i do. i do, however, try quite a lot of MMOs. this makes me come across as a know-it-all at times, but the bottom line is that this forum is an MMO forum and devs are looking to other MMOs for inspiration in their reboot of FFXIV. so the topic comes up a lot. and i happen to have quite a lot of experience with it.



yes, true- you did beat it, and it does prove it's not *necessary* for voice chat. i never said it was necessary, though. i said it was "impossible to be serious"- and again, this leaves room for debate over just what "serious" means, but that doesn't say "impossible to accomplish"

furthermore, as i previously mentioned- the fact that it's possible doesn't mean all experiences are the same. and the word "equal" shouldn't imply i'm comparing 'better' or 'worst'- just that they aren't equivalent. implying our experiences are the same based simply on the fact that we both beat it does disservice to the entire basis for comparison, as the comparison needs to be made on an equal basis *or* context must be provided to allow for an inequality (ie: the fact that we do it without any videos or guides, and try to do it as fast as possible after patch goes live. very few other LSs experience this and as a result they largely experience content differently than we do. this is especially noteworthy in the context of voice chat and other elements which improve performance)

as you said- none of this diminishes your efforts or enhances my own. i agree. however, this makes our efforts and experiences and the resulting perspectives a bit different. and while we can also split hairs over just *how* different- the difference is there nonetheless.



but discussing things is exactly what i do, until i'm met with (or simply observe) an attitude which isn't conducive to constructive discussion. and you can very clearly see a lot of that here and in any number of other threads. (both examples of me constructively discussing things and people presenting an attitude which isn't conducive to that)

i'm not the best person at interpersonal politics, but i understand systems and logic, and i'm quite good at cutting through to the heart of any matter. details often bore me. i'm much more interesting in sifting through arguments to isolate and argue for the principle. the fact that you're invested and you care and you actually want to discuss things is appreciated, but you also have to understand that *there is such an overwhelming amount of garbage* posted in this forums that i can get tired of it and it makes me short with people.

it's a character weakness i've acknowledged on multiple occasions in the forums, and whenever it comes up i do apologize. i try to work around it, but it's difficult. especially when i do care quite a lot about this game being successful in 2.0 and so many forum regulars, in spite of possibly (probably) having good intentions, seem to be working against this end- whether wittingly or not.

in the end i shouldn't be short with particular people just because i'm tired of reading other people posting floods of stupid shit. it's not your fault, and i'm sorry for that.

that said, though- it is incredibly frustrating when i make a point of carefully choosing my words to say exactly what i mean denotatively (or, if not- at least providing proper context otherwise) only for people to misconstrue and misrepresent my position, happily interjecting their own connotative meanings in its place, only to carry on repeating their own position without context, without base.

devs gave these forums to us to help us provide feedback to improve game quality. but instead people just seem content to use it as a chaotic sounding board for non-constructively throwing biases at each other. and then what's even the point of having the forums? it just makes the devs' jobs exponentially harder, wading through the piles of muck to find a few scattered gold coins.

it reduces them to the gaming equivalent of toshers, and it's pretty irritating to watch unfold.

o.o

wow. just wow.

[PSxpert2011]

I wouldn't recommend voice_chat in FFXIV. I have a second/backup PC for that and if FFxiv was to crash at least I can tell my LS what happen.

[Vilhem]

There is a reason I haven't tried to seriously discuss anything with this character, and its not just in this thread. There's more than enough examples in this thread, including yours Almalexia, that perfectly illustrate. He chooses to ignore it. That's his problem, not ours though.

[strallaalaa]

i hate mics, i hate vent. the reality is i've yet to join a linkshell or guild in the few mmo's that forced me to use it where there were more then 4-6people that actually talked in it. everyone usually sitting quietly listening to instructions that the leaders are to lazy to type so they can save a little time while the rest of us waist an entire day sitting on vent with them just to hear a couple of easily typed instructions.

even more so worse is the fact that people who use and expect vent are the idiots who didn't do there homework on what the battle will be like. or people you have to repeatedly tell what to do when after one or 2 runs you should already know. and a simple macro or 2 could take care of any need really. so yeah i'm a old school ffxi player and i hate mmo's that force vent. usually it's just mmo's that have separate servers that do this, NA servers especially. i'm an american but fuk that i would rather play with the rest of the world typing then any mmo with just us.

the only time i see vent useful in a mmo would be for 6man static pvp that is constantly changing, maybe even for people trying to get first kills in dungeons and stuff, but even then ..when shit goes wrong even with mics your probably gonna start over again.

so really it's always about just being to lazy to type, you will save some time, but you will waist all of our time instead. can you imagine in ffxi, X2dynamisis(what5hrs runs?), X2enerjah, X4salvage, X7assaults, sky and sea for like 10hrs, HNMs, KS, BCNMs, X2limbus runs, nyzle isle, did i miss something? all forced vent? i would of been on vent about 10-15hours a day, sorry but not happening. and even in ffxiv i spent straight days farming and doing dungeons, no way i'm sitting in vent with people, i'm social but not that social. i'm about playing the game, i don't need real convo's, the game isn't a replacement for real life and humans, i have that in real life just the same i don't replace graphics of flowers for real flowers.

and then there is always the infamous stuttering guy talking to the only girl in vent for like 20mins in between events and stuff lol. no thanks. warhammer had forced vent for awhile, but people just left those guilds and joined other ones. it's what i did even in ffxiv, it's like the one thing i ask before i join one, forced vent? no ok, but is it vent people who actually do stuff like dungeons? yes? k no thanks. to each there own i guess, but if i can do 64man dynamisis and full linkshell sky and sea without it, we can do ifrit and ffxiv dungeons without it too. plus we are getting auto grouping, this removes the linkshells thinking my way or high way cause ...we can do it all ourselves with very little work. but that is my opinion on mics, i just hate them lmao. but if i have to use it, i will. but it's rare that i can't find a shell that is just as good as any using them.

[Dhalmel]

This thread went south fairly quickly. People have their preferences no need to be all butthurt over it.


I feel that unless you're confident 100% with what you're doing in the content you're participating in or deaf (more common than you think) you should at least have ventrilo/mumble on and listen in for orders & notifications.

I however don't feel it's necessary for you to ALWAYS be on voice when you're logged in. I don't feel that it's necessary to be on voice just to be invited for content if you're on stand-by or just gathering/crafting to pass time.

[odintius]

It pretty simple to understand voice chat you like it and want people to use it to what your standards and others are placed and don't like to be challeged when someone does not totally agree with those set of views. Voice chat is a convenience to players it good to have the first few fights but afterwards it becomes a place to bs talk while doing that content because by then you know what needs to be done by that point and can casually talk to people while playing at same time.

[Vanguard319]

I have a pretty good quality integrated microphone in my laptop, and three different VOIPS (Mumble, TS3, and C3)