Truely separating class from job - an overhaul (again).

[Isaaru]

This thread at this moment is the equivalent to me making a thread saying DRG does too much damage and should be nerfed. The problem with this is I do not know how much damage DRG does because I have not seen or played DRG in the 2.0 version. Just like how the OP said that classes are bad. Yeah they were pretty bad in 1.0, but abilities and traits are going to be changed in 2.0 to accommodate for the new battle system. As already stated in this thread, before an overhaul should even be considered we should see how classes play out in 2.0.

Jobs were and always are meant to excel in each respective role while being restricted in other aspects. The concept of a class is to have more customization for solo play.

[Xeia]

Why would you ever want a Paladin and a Dark Knight to stem from the same class? Why does that seem to be a go-to example? Forget their FF lore for a second -- in terms of gameplay, they're pretty extreme opposites. I can't think of many skills I'd be happy with them sharing.

I have plenty to say against classing getting more than one job, but that seems to be a second argument. And it's not what OP was getting at.

So here's my suggestion. It's simple enough that it can actually be conceivably done without changing the way anything works:

• Balance the stats between jobs and their respective classes. Jobs should have more specialized bonuses (specialized, not stronger) while classes have a more even spread. But balanced means balanced in terms of application, not that they have a mathematically equal sum. These spread out stats have to actually give the classes some benefit rather than just making them less competent and their job's role.
• Increase the number of job-earned abilities. I'll use 10 as an example here, though the actual number would have to be tweaked to find a good balance.
• Give jobs a small number of free slots to take skills from its two partner-classes. We'll say 5. Jobs retain use of all of their class skills.
• Since jobs have 15 abilities outside what they inherit from their class (10 job abilities, 5 free slots), give classes 15-20 free slots. Again, I don't care about the actual numbers, but just gernally. Give them a bunch. Enough to make up for the fact that job-specific skills are stronger.
• Obviously, classes would need enough abilities that were unique to them and their job in order to stop all classes basically being able to achieve the same or similar ability spread.

Yes, I'm fully aware that that's basically how it's set up right now.. my point is this: The idea that jobs are highly-specialized and incredibly powerful within their specific role, while classes are far more versatile and sport increased flexibility in solo or low-man situations is fine. What is bad about it is simply what everyone's already pointed out -- that isn't how it works.

So why not just push what we have a little further in either direction instead of going crazy with overhauls? I'm very optimistic that, come ARR, we will see a... manifestation of this sentiment, in one form or another. Make jobs even more specialized than they were -- they should stand very distinct from their classes once they're fully developed (through the use of more than a measly 5 unique skills). But actually make classes as versatile as you promised us they are. Hell, in completing the class-specific quest why not award me a bonus when I'm on that class without a soul crystal equipped and without a party?

Make me WANT to solo without my job on, SE.

[Dzian]

Why would you ever want a Paladin and a Dark Knight to stem from the same class? Why does that seem to be a go-to example? Forget their FF lore for a second -- in terms of gameplay, they're pretty extreme opposites. I can't think of many skills I'd be happy with them sharing..

The original idea way back when. was to give "gladiators" a dps option in a party where a tank is already present / not needed.

it has on occassion even been "loosly" mentioned by devs. so it tends to be a good and common example of the problems with the old system. (i say old as i havent played arr but i do hope there are changes in it)

[BlaiseLallaise]

...it has on occassion even been "loosly" mentioned by devs. so it tends to be a good and common example of the problems with the old system...

I can't find the post, but I believe Yoshi-P may have used it in an example. Whether it was him or just a dev, it spoke pretty loudly that the thought is on their minds.

So, instead of bitching about how I think Dark Knight would fit better with Marauder, I decided to consider how it might fit with Gladiator. Then it hit me. What if Gladiator could use both 1-handed and 2-handed swords. They are, in essence, a 'sword user'. Does that necessarily restrict it to 1-handed swords? I can't see why it would.

Including 2-handers into their weaponry, Gladiator branching to Dark Knight suddenly isn't such a stretch. This is given PLD is restricted to 1-handed, and DRK is restricted to 2-handed, and each type of sword has its own weapon skills. We will have to see what SE decides to do.

[Reika]

I can't find the post, but I believe Yoshi-P may have used it in an example. Whether it was him or just a dev, it spoke pretty loudly that the thought is on their minds.

So, instead of bitching about how I think Dark Knight would fit better with Marauder, I decided to consider how it might fit with Gladiator. Then it hit me. What if Gladiator could use both 1-handed and 2-handed swords. They are, in essence, a 'sword user'. Does that necessarily restrict it to 1-handed swords? I can't see why it would.

Including 2-handers into their weaponry, Gladiator branching to Dark Knight suddenly isn't such a stretch. This is given PLD is restricted to 1-handed, and DRK is restricted to 2-handed, and each type of sword has its own weapon skills. We will have to see what SE decides to do.

You can give GLD a 2h weapon, but that wouldn't change its skillset which has too many shield based abilities, all defensive based abilities, no aoe attacks, and no really powerful weaponskills other than what Dark Knight job skills would have. So you 10 or so abilities become useless with a greatsword equipped and not tanking, 5 cross class skills are lost, and all you gain are 5 abilities. Thats not going to work either - without an overhaul of gladiator.

5 abilities pertaining to the job is what kills any ability to do any of that. Only a Overhaul can make it happen.

[BlaiseLallaise]

You can give GLD a 2h weapon, but that wouldn't change its skillset which has too many shield based abilities, all defensive based abilities, no aoe attacks, and no really powerful weaponskills other than what Dark Knight job skills would have. So you 10 or so abilities become useless with a greatsword equipped and not tanking, 5 cross class skills are lost, and all you gain are 5 abilities. Thats not going to work either - without an overhaul of gladiator.

5 abilities pertaining to the job is what kills any ability to do any of that. Only a Overhaul can make it happen.

As I've stated before, I totally agree class overhaul would be necessary, and that is an implied fact in my previous comment. Just giving a 2-handed sword to Gladiator implies some kind of overhaul. Just so we're clear, my stance is that the only scenario where class overhaul is not necessary would be if SE continued with the 1 class, 1 job mechanic.