Truely separating class from job - an overhaul (again).

[Reika]

I disagree with the thought of classes being made to be weaker than jobs intentionally. The team was rushed, had very little to work with, and way too many client limitations. Jobs were introduced with their names as they are mainly because people wanted that nostalgia. There is nothing wrong with classes being separate entities. One limitation being the ability to even add more classes, or new things to level up. Which I feel is why we have class-job locking in the first place. I was always against not having to level up the job separately from lvl 1 after you unlock it. With ARR's lack of or reduced limitations on what they can do, they can make things right.

The idea of More than one job branching off of current classes only means there will be little to nothing to level up in coming expansions, and in order for it to not be broken and/or stupid, they would have to overhaul every class to preform different skills than jobs anyways, or else every job is going to be the same thing with different names if it comes from the same class. Such as DRK also coming from GLD will be a take UNLESS they overhaul glad to not be an extreme tank by itself, but only change to extreme tank if you are on PLD, and be something else if you are on DRK. But then they would have to follow my above example anyways in order to achieve that. The class would have to be different than the job. The Idea of branching more than one job from each class also ensures that there will be little to nothing to level up once a new job is announced. I for one do not want to be instanta lvl50 at expansion time, and don't even have to play that new job in order to lvl cap it.

There also no reason to assume that classes cant or shouldn't take on party roles. Class and job are just names. We call WHM, WAR, and the others JOBS because other FF titles they were part of a JOB system, and after the class reforms, classes took on party roles WITHOUT the presence of jobs. But remember that none of those other titles had more than one CLASS beyond squire if you would call that a class or 'that player'. It was always one thing until they got a job crystal or lvled up enough to become a different job. FFXIV's classes could be made to have roles of their own, however their roles should not be Identical to the jobs that branch off of them.

So if you look at it from a logical perspective, there are no jobs in FFXIV, only classes and advanced classes. With a reform to separate the class from job, there will no longer be 8 classes and 8 advanced classes, but 16 classes to use in a party. Each and every one could be balanced to be able to solo, as they all already are, but not be the same like they are now, and still have their own roles in Parties and raids.


This is not about going back to being able to cross class every ability and be a god. This is about helping classes have more usability besides these rare solo cases. Yes overhauls take time. Unfortunantly they will inevitably have to overhaul classes and jobs multiple times as they add new classes, new jobs, and new content. Especialy if they plan to branch more than one job off of one class. Overhauling will be needed. Else, what can the next JOB to branch off of THM be but another BLM without the ancient magic that uses the exact same weaponry? Ancient magic is not what makes the BLM, its all the other fire/ice/lightning/other elemental magic - which is learned by the THM under this poor system, not the BLM - that makes the BLM.

[BlaiseLallaise]

...

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.

[Dzian]

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

Thats a pretty good way of putting it. it's kinda what i was trying to say below but not quite worded so well :P

But yeah the further you try and push classes/ jobs into different roles / styles the more you lose any reason to connect them at all

I'm Kinda reserving judgement till beta but i have one comment.

With the op's examples of skills and progression it really doesnt work out any differently than totally detaching jobs from the armory system alltogether. you just just as easily have a seperate skill set from 1-20 as you do 20+

the advantage of seperating them entirely though means you have infinitely more diversity because each and every job can be built on a totally blank frame. where by keeping them connected a black mage will still be built on a thaumatage frame and thus be restricted to thaumatage mechanics of a sort.

Plus in the ops example everything that follows the thm path could pretty easily fit a red mage job frame.
in which case my arguement would be that it would be simply better to have 2 totally seperate jobs. blm and rdm, both independant from the other than to try and branch them both out from one frame

[Alaltus]

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.

I would say the answer would be to make gaining job abilities/traits/etc something you have to invest time into. Something more substantial than a questline. Say at 30 gladiator you unlock Paladin and level to 50. You unlock everything on Paladin as your leveling but at the end of it you then want to play Dark Knight. Rather than everything being given to you in a few quests you have to do the same/similar amount of work into unlocking Dark Knight's skills as you did Paladin's. For example a merit point like system for paying for abilities etc.

[Reika]

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.

My thoughts are however that the class and the job should very well be different. There shouldn't be advanced classes, there should be this class and then that class. They might as well just eliminate classes all together and keep the advanced classes if they keep up with the current system. The system is going to need that major overhaul whether we like it or not in order to not be utterly stupid. With the current system, GLD -> PLD or GLD -> DRK will both = tank. They wouldn't have different roles if they were both attached to gladiator. The skill set of gladiator determines this. 5 measly skills added to DRK that try to focus on damage would just make it a garbage tank. They would have to majorly overhaul gladiator in order for it to change accordingly, or just not use gladiator at all. The same holds for all the classes. I think the one that can get away with not changing is archer, since all but 1 of the songs come from the BRD class quests. The rest, the 'JOB' is mostly defined by the class skills, and not really the 5 measly skills they thought would define them. This is why it all needs to change. The class cant be the same as the job or there cant be any class -> multi-job system.

And yes there is the insta-50 think that I and (idk how many) others wouldn't want. While they are better off adding a new class for each and every new job, classes still cant be too similar to the job or else the class will continue to be totally worthless.

[BlaiseLallaise]

I would say the answer would be to make gaining job abilities/traits/etc something you have to invest time into. Something more substantial than a questline. Say at 30 gladiator you unlock Paladin and level to 50. You unlock everything on Paladin as your leveling but at the end of it you then want to play Dark Knight. Rather than everything being given to you in a few quests you have to do the same/similar amount of work into unlocking Dark Knight's skills as you did Paladin's. For example a merit point like system for paying for abilities etc.

That's actually a pretty good idea. I like it.

My thoughts are however that the class and the job should very well be different. There shouldn't be advanced classes, there should be this class and then that class. They might as well just eliminate classes all together and keep the advanced classes if they keep up with the current system. The system is going to need that major overhaul whether we like it or not in order to not be utterly stupid. With the current system, GLD -> PLD or GLD -> DRK will both = tank. They wouldn't have different roles if they were both attached to gladiator. The skill set of gladiator determines this. 5 measly skills added to DRK that try to focus on damage would just make it a garbage tank. They would have to majorly overhaul gladiator in order for it to change accordingly, or just not use gladiator at all. The same holds for all the classes. I think the one that can get away with not changing is archer, since all but 1 of the songs come from the BRD class quests. The rest, the 'JOB' is mostly defined by the class skills, and not really the 5 measly skills they thought would define them. This is why it all needs to change. The class cant be the same as the job or there cant be any class -> multi-job system.

And yes there is the insta-50 think that I and (idk how many) others wouldn't want. While they are better off adding a new class for each and every new job, classes still cant be too similar to the job or else the class will continue to be totally worthless.

You effectively nailed why multiple jobs per class wouldn't work in the 1.0 system. I completely agree. The last thing I want to see is a garbage DRK tank. It appears the only real options are:

1. Leave it as is (1 class, 1 job)
2. Multiple jobs per class (requiring another class overhaul to make it work)
3. Completely separate classes and jobs (effectively eliminating one or the other, also requiring an overhaul)

They all have merits and drawbacks, and the community as a whole will probably never agree on which is best. That's why I believe SE will opt to not change anything. Like you, I wouldn't agree with that move, but I doubt it'll stop me from playing. If I must level an entirely different class just so I can play a Dark Knight, so be it.