Truely separating class from job - an overhaul (again).

[BlaiseLallaise]

I have been thinking about this topic a bit over the past month or two. I have come to the conclusion that it would be wiser to focus on figuring out how to branch a class into two or three jobs without essentially making two or three identical jobs. The end result is not too dissimilar from what the OP proposes. The difference, however, is that the class/job dynamic would be closer to what it is now.

Using the THM example, if a THM was rebuilt such that it had its old debuff mechanics as well as its newer nuking mechanics, then the jobs would be built such that the soul of the Black Mage allows access to only the nuking mechanics of the THM, while the soul of the ... (Necromancer?) would allow access to only the debuff mechanics of the THM. There would likely be exceptions to this rule, and possibly a few spells or abilities only accessible to THM and/or other classes.

As such, what we have is a class that can play different ways, however the player wishes. From that we have multiple jobs that are unique, well-defined, and focused, designed to hone one aspect of the base class at the cost of another. That's how I feel about classes and jobs. Classes should have an array of play styles, while jobs act as the role-defining mechanic they were originally meant to be.

[PSxpert2011]

Why....?

Let the DEVs do their job. All we do is give them feedback.

No more overhauling the job/class system, it's fine!

[Reika]

Why....?

Let the DEVs do their job. All we do is give them feedback.

No more overhauling the job/class system, it's fine!

No its not :/

[Xeia]

Personally, I would prefer the class specialization you've talked about to instead be a different job (eg from THM, both BLM and NEC), but that whole job progression thing is a discussion for elsewhere. I can see your point for wanting the base class to fulfil the role rather than adding more jobs, I just prefer the thought of more jobs.

I'm always surprised how many people I see advocating this idea. While it looks nice on the surface, I can't see it working fairly without a complete overhaul of the way classes and jobs are currently set up. To follow your example, let's say I'm a level 50 BLM but have never touched NEC. Now I go and unlock it and all of a sudden I'm a top level Necromancer. Why is that a problem? Other than the fact that the two jobs would be strikingly similar, balancing issues between classes.

Continuing with the example, we now have two full-fledged jobs stemming from Thaumaturge and tied in levels. That means that leveling THM is more worthwhile than leveling, say... ARC. How do we fix that? Well, now let's make ARC split into two paths too. BRD and... I dunno, RNG. Now we're in a situation where in order to make each class tree equally useful they need to think up two jobs for each class they add. People are already worried that the armory system limits the introduction of new jobs because they have to think up a new class for each one... and while the suggestion you gave is often cited as a fix, I think it compounds the problem. Think of SMN. What on earth could be its partner job? Arcanist really can't go into anything other than Summoner because it uses Carbuncle.

---

Bah, I guess that wasn't really the point of OP's thread, so I'll try to be brief in getting back to what I wanted to say:
I like the current system. I think it works BECAUSE classes are comparatively weak. And while I agree there needs to be more distinction between jobs and classes, anything added to the class will also be added to the job, so it wouldn't accomplish that. I'm against the class having abilities the job won't inherit (other than cross-class). I like to think of classes as the level of expertise any normal person can achieve through hardwork (NPCs in the guilds), while jobs are only the few special, "gifted" elite (us players). Of course jobs are stronger.

That being said, I'm categorically in favor of added abilities, especially spells for mages. The number of different spells we have access to at the moment is depressing.

On a side note, I -NEVER- equipped my soul crystal while soloing as a Gladiator.

[Dzian]

I'm always surprised how many people I see advocating this idea. While it looks nice on the surface, I can't see it working fairly without a complete overhaul of the way classes and jobs are currently set up. To follow your example, let's say I'm a level 50 BLM but have never touched NEC. Now I go and unlock it and all of a sudden I'm a top level Necromancer. Why is that a problem? Other than the fact that the two jobs would be strikingly similar, balancing issues between classes.

Continuing with the example, we now have two full-fledged jobs stemming from Thaumaturge and tied in levels. That means that leveling THM is more worthwhile than leveling, say... ARC. How do we fix that? Well, now let's make ARC split into two paths too. BRD and... I dunno, RNG. Now we're in a situation where in order to make each class tree equally useful they need to think up two jobs for each class they add. People are already worried that the armory system limits the introduction of new jobs because they have to think up a new class for each one... and while the suggestion you gave is often cited as a fix, I think it compounds the problem. Think of SMN. What on earth could be its partner job? Arcanist really can't go into anything other than Summoner because it uses Carbuncle.

Yup that was one of my points. on top of that though if you consider that later down the line every class has a new job added. then all of those new jobs are instantly max level. which ultimately seems likely to make levelling for newer players harder and harder. jun 2014 patch 2.x - we've added 8 new jobs (one per class) and everyone has them at max level almost immediately.

just doesnt really seem to make sense that way.

[Mjollnir]

I'm always surprised how many people I see advocating this idea. While it looks nice on the surface, I can't see it working fairly without a complete overhaul of the way classes and jobs are currently set up. To follow your example, let's say I'm a level 50 BLM but have never touched NEC. Now I go and unlock it and all of a sudden I'm a top level Necromancer. Why is that a problem? Other than the fact that the two jobs would be strikingly similar, balancing issues between classes.

From 1.0, there's questing to unlock the class which involves a pre-req of having advanced with a different class. This adds flavour and reason as to why you've attempted that specialization. There's then a series of quests and group battles to unlock the abilities and gain the AF, so whereas you may be a lv. 50 Necromancer, you'd not be as nearly top-level as you would be after investing the time to complete the additional content keyed to the job.

I honestly do expect that this is what we'll see in future. There has been a stated desire to reduce time spent levelling (ie multiple jobs) for a focus on end-game content. And yes, I do suppose the partner job for BRD will be RNG, SMN will have a parity with... PUP..? MECHACARBUNCLE!!!

I do hope classes remain the forte of the single-player experience (due to cross-class skills) so they remain relevant throughout the ARR experience.

[Reika]

I disagree with the thought of classes being made to be weaker than jobs intentionally. The team was rushed, had very little to work with, and way too many client limitations. Jobs were introduced with their names as they are mainly because people wanted that nostalgia. There is nothing wrong with classes being separate entities. One limitation being the ability to even add more classes, or new things to level up. Which I feel is why we have class-job locking in the first place. I was always against not having to level up the job separately from lvl 1 after you unlock it. With ARR's lack of or reduced limitations on what they can do, they can make things right.

The idea of More than one job branching off of current classes only means there will be little to nothing to level up in coming expansions, and in order for it to not be broken and/or stupid, they would have to overhaul every class to preform different skills than jobs anyways, or else every job is going to be the same thing with different names if it comes from the same class. Such as DRK also coming from GLD will be a take UNLESS they overhaul glad to not be an extreme tank by itself, but only change to extreme tank if you are on PLD, and be something else if you are on DRK. But then they would have to follow my above example anyways in order to achieve that. The class would have to be different than the job. The Idea of branching more than one job from each class also ensures that there will be little to nothing to level up once a new job is announced. I for one do not want to be instanta lvl50 at expansion time, and don't even have to play that new job in order to lvl cap it.

There also no reason to assume that classes cant or shouldn't take on party roles. Class and job are just names. We call WHM, WAR, and the others JOBS because other FF titles they were part of a JOB system, and after the class reforms, classes took on party roles WITHOUT the presence of jobs. But remember that none of those other titles had more than one CLASS beyond squire if you would call that a class or 'that player'. It was always one thing until they got a job crystal or lvled up enough to become a different job. FFXIV's classes could be made to have roles of their own, however their roles should not be Identical to the jobs that branch off of them.

So if you look at it from a logical perspective, there are no jobs in FFXIV, only classes and advanced classes. With a reform to separate the class from job, there will no longer be 8 classes and 8 advanced classes, but 16 classes to use in a party. Each and every one could be balanced to be able to solo, as they all already are, but not be the same like they are now, and still have their own roles in Parties and raids.


This is not about going back to being able to cross class every ability and be a god. This is about helping classes have more usability besides these rare solo cases. Yes overhauls take time. Unfortunantly they will inevitably have to overhaul classes and jobs multiple times as they add new classes, new jobs, and new content. Especialy if they plan to branch more than one job off of one class. Overhauling will be needed. Else, what can the next JOB to branch off of THM be but another BLM without the ancient magic that uses the exact same weaponry? Ancient magic is not what makes the BLM, its all the other fire/ice/lightning/other elemental magic - which is learned by the THM under this poor system, not the BLM - that makes the BLM.

[BlaiseLallaise]

...

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.

[Dzian]

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

Thats a pretty good way of putting it. it's kinda what i was trying to say below but not quite worded so well :P

But yeah the further you try and push classes/ jobs into different roles / styles the more you lose any reason to connect them at all

I'm Kinda reserving judgement till beta but i have one comment.

With the op's examples of skills and progression it really doesnt work out any differently than totally detaching jobs from the armory system alltogether. you just just as easily have a seperate skill set from 1-20 as you do 20+

the advantage of seperating them entirely though means you have infinitely more diversity because each and every job can be built on a totally blank frame. where by keeping them connected a black mage will still be built on a thaumatage frame and thus be restricted to thaumatage mechanics of a sort.

Plus in the ops example everything that follows the thm path could pretty easily fit a red mage job frame.
in which case my arguement would be that it would be simply better to have 2 totally seperate jobs. blm and rdm, both independant from the other than to try and branch them both out from one frame

[Alaltus]

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.

I would say the answer would be to make gaining job abilities/traits/etc something you have to invest time into. Something more substantial than a questline. Say at 30 gladiator you unlock Paladin and level to 50. You unlock everything on Paladin as your leveling but at the end of it you then want to play Dark Knight. Rather than everything being given to you in a few quests you have to do the same/similar amount of work into unlocking Dark Knight's skills as you did Paladin's. For example a merit point like system for paying for abilities etc.