Job Leveling / Separate Idenity

[indira]

Umm. IF all your skills and traits change to something completely different when you switch from a class to a job then whats the point in tying them together. i'm a gladiator i know sentinal but im a paladin suddenly i forgot sentinal and learnt something different...

if you're going to do that then you may as well just have every job as a totally seperate entity and scrap the armory all together.

whats the point in having jobs? you only get 5 skills

mnk is not the same as pug, JOB's are the spirits of something else.

[Dzian]

whats the point in having jobs?.

Jobs were created to give classes identities.

mnk is not the same as pug

not quite but near as damn it. save for 1 or 2 abilities they both play pretty much identically.

which ultimately was the original problem with classes. there was a set of skills and that set of skills you would use whether you were pugilist lancer marauder gladiator or archer. all classes were basically identical.

Jobs exist to create diversity and variety where classes failed.

[Mychael]

Jobs exist to create diversity and variety where classes failed.

However, they fixed [aka limited] classes to differentiate them, then threw jobs on top as overkill.

Also, I'd like to disagree with your use of "diversity" and "variety." Pre-reform classes allowed each player to pick their own set of abilities, i.e. every player was diverse. Post-reform, everyone has one of the predefined skillsets.

[Radacci]

Jobs were created to give classes identities.


not quite but near as damn it. save for 1 or 2 abilities they both play pretty much identically.

which ultimately was the original problem with classes. there was a set of skills and that set of skills you would use whether you were pugilist lancer marauder gladiator or archer. all classes were basically identical.

Jobs exist to create diversity and variety where classes failed.

Such a shame that jobs have no identity then except bard maybe.
Jobs are highly circumstantial, and you don't use their skills a lot anyways, except a few, in party.
Jobs don't give diversity, it's the other way around. Jobs are limited in nr of cross-skills they can use, for (mostly) little benefit.
While classes can use many cross-skills from many other classes.

However, they fixed [aka limited] classes to differentiate them, then threw jobs on top as overkill.

Also, I'd like to disagree with your use of "diversity" and "variety." Pre-reform classes allowed each player to pick their own set of abilities, i.e. every player was diverse. Post-reform, everyone has one of the predefined skillsets.

It's hardly overkill, when you don't even use Job skills most of the time. How often do you use any BLM skills outside party for example? and even then you probably use mostly sleep and Flare.
WHM mostly just regain
DRG, Jump?
You're limiting yourself, for basically no gains.
That's why Jobs need many more skills, to feel unique.

[Sakasa]

On the subject as a whole I don't have an opinion leaning to either side but I still think we are set in limited thinking because of the stipulations and requirements of 1.0. The Job system doesn't necessarily require the majority of the class that it came from. We also are locked into the combo strings from 1.0 in that same concept. Now this isn't foolish it is all we have to work with and we have no evidence of new expansions of the possibilities.

But if you think out of the normal confines that we had prior the options of the armoury system are still there. Such as abilities that are not given to jobs or even a job that uses the sets of different classes in different ways.

This is an old example I used back way before alpha but if RDM was tied to gladiator but the adoption list of skills came from con and thm instead of other melee classes and only gladiators fast blade and savage blade were taken for instance you can change the dynamic the job plays from its precursor. So if this changes are done a combo system involving the weapon skill > spell could be used instead of the normal DD ws > ws or spell > spell.

A new example albeit one that takes more work on the job side would be dancer if it came from pugilist then you would string together WS > "song/dance" > WS.

The bonuses of the combos and the job skills that relate to them of course would have to reflect that but the impending doom of the armoury system only exists with in the confines of how limiting they will make it and if each job has to have an individual corresponding class. Expanding beyond that and developing roles that a character can fill outside of the trinity (or even with in it but that always have balance problems when it works) can change this "dead end" people consider the Armoury system to be. As well as the inter-workings of the system can be expanded on even more with a little creative thinking along the lines of Divine Veil where class interaction gives a benefit. So I wouldn't go predicting a forced rework on the devs part just yet.

[Dzian]

Also, I'd like to disagree with your use of "diversity" and "variety." Pre-reform classes allowed each player to pick their own set of abilities, i.e. every player was diverse.

Pre-reform every class used the same skill set. admittedly you maybe didnt have to but ultimately everyone did because those were the strongest skills to have.

that was the whole reason for the reform in the first place.

monk is kung fu asian, pug boxer western

gladiator fighter, paladin holy knight

archer bow shooting guy, bard plays music.

whats the difference between a monk punching something and a pugilist? none
whats the difference between how a gladiator uses its shield and a paladin? none
whats the difference between how a brd shoots there bow and an archer? none.
classes and jobs ultimately feel the same to play or near as dam it

You're limiting yourself, for basically no gains.
That's why Jobs need many more skills, to feel unique.

The thing is you weren't. both in party and out Jobs were vastly superior. (with maybe a couple of exceptions) A warrior could tear havoc through natalan or any thing he wanted to do solo and was almost unstoppable in doing so. A marauder simply couldn't compete. thus ultimately its as a class that you were limiting yourself.

Bards could paeon themselves and run around shooting arrows all day long. without needing to wait for invigorate or keen flurries. Blackmages could nuke a lot longer with simple convert and even survive aggro better with sleepga. perhaps they lost a couple of survival skills but a good offence is often an amazing defence. it was pretty much the same for all jobs.

[Mychael]

Pre-reform every class used the same skill set. admittedly you maybe didnt have to but ultimately everyone did because those were the strongest skills to have.

that was the whole reason for the reform in the first place.

So, because most of the players used the same set of skills, they reformed so that all characters had to use the same skills?

I see.

whats the difference between a monk punching something and a pugilist? none
whats the difference between how a gladiator uses its shield and a paladin? none
whats the difference between how a brd shoots there bow and an archer? none.
classes and jobs ultimately feel the same to play or near as dam it

The thing is you weren't. both in party and out Jobs were vastly superior. (with maybe a couple of exceptions) A warrior could tear havoc through natalan or any thing he wanted to do solo and was almost unstoppable in doing so. A marauder simply couldn't compete. thus ultimately its as a class that you were limiting yourself.

Bards could paeon themselves and run around shooting arrows all day long. without needing to wait for invigorate or keen flurries. Blackmages could nuke a lot longer with simple convert and even survive aggro better with sleepga. perhaps they lost a couple of survival skills but a good offence is often an amazing defence. it was pretty much the same for all jobs.

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