Job Leveling / Separate Idenity

[Ferth]

Frankly, I think Jobs need to have more than just 5 abilities tied to them. They should also alter about half of the traits a given class has. This would also allow classes to branch into multiple jobs with fewer conflicts, as well as giving jobs a significantly different feel compared to the base class.

For example, give Gladiator a decent mix of offensive and defensive traits. When they change to Paladin, the offensive traits would convert to more defensive/tank utility traits. And down the road if Gladiator gets a dps job tied to it, the defensive traits could convert to more offensive/dps utility traits.

[indira]

you just really hate doing optimal dps, don't you?

well the the grid kills the point of having choice, and a waste of time to make. they should just leave it like it is, no choice on where the job can grow that way no problems in the future.

Frankly, I think Jobs need to have more than just 5 abilities tied to them. They should also alter about half of the traits a given class has. This would also allow classes to branch into multiple jobs with fewer conflicts, as well as giving jobs a significantly different feel compared to the base class.

For example, give Gladiator a decent mix of offensive and defensive traits. When they change to Paladin, the offensive traits would convert to more defensive/tank utility traits. And down the road if Gladiator gets a dps job tied to it, the defensive traits could convert to more offensive/dps utility traits.

i said this when the jobs came along.
when you turn into a job ALL the skills need to change to fit that job. other wise were stuck with class version 1.5

[Dzian]

when you turn into a job ALL the skills need to change to fit that job. other wise were stuck with class version 1.5

Umm. IF all your skills and traits change to something completely different when you switch from a class to a job then whats the point in tying them together. i'm a gladiator i know sentinal but im a paladin suddenly i forgot sentinal and learnt something different...

if you're going to do that then you may as well just have every job as a totally seperate entity and scrap the armory all together.

[Reika]

I like your idea, but.. really why bother with it now? seriously why ppl even bother with the armoury system now?

People dont bother with the armory system because SE broke the hell out of it and made it useless with the overkill class reform followed by Jobs wich poor implimentation ceased all usefulness of the classs. It needs to be bothered with so it can get fixed.

Frankly, I think Jobs need to have more than just 5 abilities tied to them. They should also alter about half of the traits a given class has. This would also allow classes to branch into multiple jobs with fewer conflicts, as well as giving jobs a significantly different feel compared to the base class.

For example, give Gladiator a decent mix of offensive and defensive traits. When they change to Paladin, the offensive traits would convert to more defensive/tank utility traits. And down the road if Gladiator gets a dps job tied to it, the defensive traits could convert to more offensive/dps utility traits.

This is pretty much exactly what they need to do along with Weaponskills and abilities. It will make classes worth using again, and classes wont merely be incomplete versions of jobs.

[Zetsumei_Tsunarashi]

I was thinking about how well subjobs worked in ffxi and I was wondering how the concept could be applied to ARR.

What I came up with is basically just have classes function as subjobs and expand jobs to account for the change. (give them more abilities)

How it would work is classes would remain essentially the same without a job stone equipped. You can level them up to the cap and use the armory system to mix and match abilities as you choose.

Where it gets different is when you equip a job stone. Instead of binding a job to a class, job stones can be equipped with any class. For example I can equip a bard job stone as a conjurer. Upon doing so you retain your classes max level as your job, but your class level becomes half. So if I'm a level 50 conjurer and I equip a bard stone. Now I'm a level 50 bard with a conjurer level of 25. This would give me access to all bard abilities up to level 50 and any abilities a lvl 25 conjurer would have access to via the armory system.

This would give the player the flexibility to play how they want and use what weapons they want while also leaving room to create more jobs and classes independently of one another.

[indira]

Umm. IF all your skills and traits change to something completely different when you switch from a class to a job then whats the point in tying them together. i'm a gladiator i know sentinal but im a paladin suddenly i forgot sentinal and learnt something different...

if you're going to do that then you may as well just have every job as a totally seperate entity and scrap the armory all together.

whats the point in having jobs? you only get 5 skills

mnk is not the same as pug, JOB's are the spirits of something else.

[darkstarpoet1]

It's such a mess though.
If you got lv 50 LNC, i would make sense for DRG to be lv 50 also, since DRG use spear also; you should know how to fight with a spear, from being a LNC previously. It's fine if Job progression start at 30, but it should be spaced out less, so you can unlock a new skill every 3 lv, instead of 5; so you can fit in more Job skills by 50. Jobs are advanced classes, so it wouldn't be appropriate if it started earlier, and learning lower lv skills. Job skills should all be 30+

Well since people are mostly complaining about WHM and BLM, that WHM should be restricted from using elemental skills...what would DRG be restricted from using from LNC? or is the problem only in the skill sets of CNJ, THM, BLM?
It would be nice if classes didn't become Obsolete though, after capping a job...

i'm not going to say most are only complaining about whm/blm. they are just the easiest jobs to point out the way yoshi screwed things up. they both already had 2 things the class did, but they took each class down to only 1 thing they did well. all that did was made thm/cnj a job without the name. you then added jobs on top of that. they screwed up even farther by saying every class con only have 15 abilities regardless of the fact that 6 of the abilities for a mage are the same thing. out of 15 spells for blm you literally have 8 of those(over half) that are either fire or thunder.

the reason people are complaining the whm should be restricted from elements is because they destroyed what thm was on the class revamps. cnj was the elemental nuking mage that also healed. thm was the umbral/astral nuking mage that also used dot's. thm had all of the umbral/astral nukes removed and the dot's taken away from the class and then was only given half of the elemental wheel to replace both parts being removed while leaving cnj with the other half of the wheel along with keeping its ability to heal. if they had left thm alone with the umbral/astral spells and dot's cnj could have kept the entire elemental wheel and nobody would have said a word about it. that would have also had both of those classes with 2 different directions they could have went with jobs.

lancer did have a bunch of abilities before the class change where it could have been split and went 2 different ways. it could have even went a step farther into the class where it had some fast moves that hit for less damage and some powerful moves that hit super hard. that would have allowed a 2 handed hard hitting class with the long spear(dragoon) and a different version that used 1 handed spear and a small shield that had faster hits, but did less damage per hit. there was multiple things that could have been done within the classes and armory system to make the jobs system actually feel like it was an upgrade that played different than the class itself did.

on the drg being 50 just because your lancer is 50 i couldn't disagree more actually. to me the class is to learn the basics of your job. you would unlock the job at say level 30 and even if your class is 50 you should have at least had to level your job from 30 to 50. they should have leveled on their own and not together. i did not like the oh i'm 50 lancer so just give me 5 easy quests and i am all of a sudden a fully geared and fully trained dragoon. yes, dragoon uses the spear just like a lancer does, but they aren't the same thing. it'd be like saying since i do one form of martial arts and am a black belt in it so i should get a black belt in all forms of martial arts since they are all about fighting with your hands and feet. the reason we only have 5 skills for the job isn't because it starts at 30 it's because of that "brilliant" idea that all classes and jobs should have the exact same number of abilities and they decided this was the correct number for some ungodly reason.

[Shougun]

well the the grid kills the point of having choice, and a waste of time to make. they should just leave it like it is, no choice on where the job can grow that way no problems in the future.

Well there are more reasons then choice for what I suggested - but also keep in mind I suggested all three.

Normally I try to be more specific for what I suggest but honestly all I want to see is jobs be their own ideinity like -everyone- here is saying. I dont care how, I just want it to happen. I saw this as 1 of the many ways you could do it.

Now the reason why I suggested this one is because Jobs MUST take some of the classes skills like what is a WHM without cure? Well that's in CNJ. So WHM must take some of CNJ skills but you dont want all of them - and how do you tell the players which ones are coming and which ones are going. On a really long tooltip? Soulstone information is 5 pages long? lol I didnt think that was a good idea.

So I said what if we made it visual. Here you could see the WHM Diverge by taking new abilities and passives, and converge by taking old class skills. When you first start the grid, sphere, thing, you will have some of it pre filled out - this would explain the basisi. And the growth would help maintain logical coherency on the growth of the class. (Not only would this help explain gameplay mechanics but you could make the gameplay mechanic itself fun as well as the fact that it fits in nicely - since the soulstones are presumably solid aether similar to the aeteherytes.. so its like you are growing your special materia that captured the soul rather then the experience of an event)

Otherwise you will have random spells coming in and not coming in and players will be like wtf? Also using this grid allows you to break some rules like adding weapons and such (all you would need is a sphere equipped so it doesn't change you into another class).

Now in the Crystarium and the Sphere grid you have great opportunity for choice and act like real talent trees. But that wasnt the main point of my post. I like choice, I like making my choices and yes as many pointed out its hard to design multiple choices rather then one best choice (but when it happens its worth it).

All I care is to logically explain how the jobs can separate and yet lay dependent on, while not telling Yoshida to do everything over again ("redesign all characters"). You can start them all from fresh and I'd like that too, but I feel that would require more work and even work into the armory system. While this grid system would take a new UI element you wouldn't have to redesign the classes, just bits and pieces / reorganization of the jobs.

i said this when the jobs came along.
when you turn into a job ALL the skills need to change to fit that job. other wise were stuck with class version 1.5

If all skills changed it would help out logically, because only some changing would be a logical inconsistency that would look like the dev didnt polish the game. But then how would you make the white mage adopt cure without changing it?

I suppose you could make the Jobs their own but only take 5 skills from classes (so the ratio is flipped).


Also this grid/cryst/sphere system lets Jobs level on their own - making the duo jobs from class system possible for two reasons 1 jobs can be their own 2 jobs are further their own as they level on their own

[Reika]

i'm not going to say most are only complaining about whm/blm. they are just the easiest jobs to point out the way yoshi screwed things up. they both already had 2 things the class did, but they took each class down to only 1 thing they did well. all that did was made thm/cnj a job without the name. you then added jobs on top of that. they screwed up even farther by saying every class con only have 15 abilities regardless of the fact that 6 of the abilities for a mage are the same thing. out of 15 spells for blm you literally have 8 of those(over half) that are either fire or thunder.

the reason people are complaining the whm should be restricted from elements is because they destroyed what thm was on the class revamps. cnj was the elemental nuking mage that also healed. thm was the umbral/astral nuking mage that also used dot's. thm had all of the umbral/astral nukes removed and the dot's taken away from the class and then was only given half of the elemental wheel to replace both parts being removed while leaving cnj with the other half of the wheel along with keeping its ability to heal. if they had left thm alone with the umbral/astral spells and dot's cnj could have kept the entire elemental wheel and nobody would have said a word about it. that would have also had both of those classes with 2 different directions they could have went with jobs.

lancer did have a bunch of abilities before the class change where it could have been split and went 2 different ways. it could have even went a step farther into the class where it had some fast moves that hit for less damage and some powerful moves that hit super hard. that would have allowed a 2 handed hard hitting class with the long spear(dragoon) and a different version that used 1 handed spear and a small shield that had faster hits, but did less damage per hit. there was multiple things that could have been done within the classes and armory system to make the jobs system actually feel like it was an upgrade that played different than the class itself did.

on the drg being 50 just because your lancer is 50 i couldn't disagree more actually. to me the class is to learn the basics of your job. you would unlock the job at say level 30 and even if your class is 50 you should have at least had to level your job from 30 to 50. they should have leveled on their own and not together. i did not like the oh i'm 50 lancer so just give me 5 easy quests and i am all of a sudden a fully geared and fully trained dragoon. yes, dragoon uses the spear just like a lancer does, but they aren't the same thing. it'd be like saying since i do one form of martial arts and am a black belt in it so i should get a black belt in all forms of martial arts since they are all about fighting with your hands and feet. the reason we only have 5 skills for the job isn't because it starts at 30 it's because of that "brilliant" idea that all classes and jobs should have the exact same number of abilities and they decided this was the correct number for some ungodly reason.

+500. yea cnj/thm are simply recieved THE MOST damage out of the changes, so they are easier to use as examples. Everything was jacked up and classes stopped mattering when jobs were introduced. Classes are inferior to jobs, Jobs are advanced classes.

Theres no reason NOT to equip soul of the paladin, because you lose out on a combo, healing spell thats better than cureI, and the ultimate skill, and can still use all GLD's WS's and abilities.

Theres no reason NOT to equip soul of the Dragoon, because you lose out on an aoe combo, jumps, and the ultimat skill, and can still use all of LNC's WS's and abilities.

Need I go on, its the same with all of them.

SE needs to hit the UNDO button on their class reforms, and start balancing properly from there.

[Lady]

Just my opinion, but I thought the crystarium in FFXIII sucked. It seemed completely pointless, just something to make me hold a button down every now an then.