Job Leveling / Separate Idenity

[Shougun]

Min-Maxing happens no matter what the system is.

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Now as to the main OP.

I don't care what system they implement as long as jobs are not tied and hamstringed by the class system. It does nothing but limit how unique the jobs themselves can be due to the intrinsic nature of requiring that job to be based around the class and it's abillities.

No matter how you paint it any class spawning from Gladiator will have access to all of the same base skills requiring them to be a tank of some sorts, and restricting any "One handed sword" class to be just that.

Any class coming from Archer will require the use of a ranged weapon, and the skills that come base with archer.

Any class spawning from Thaumaturg will require the use of the base elemental wheel that Thaum comes with.

Right now there is very little the developers can do to work around the class system, personally I hope it burns in a fire during Beta phases and we just get classic Jobs that are unique unto themselves and not chained down by a class.

Why must a Blue Mage spawn from a Gladiator and use Gladiator skills? wouldn't it be better to focus a Blue Mages skill tree on just the Blue Mages unique abillities and lore?

Why must a Time mage be tied down to either Conj-Thaum-Arcanist skills?

Do you see where I'm coming from instead of using all the skill slots each class gets to make unique skills the developers need to keep everyones skills linked to their cliche class origins.

Exactly - one of the reasons why I think the system will collapse. Every skill from the class and the whole general idea of the class transfers to the job but the job isnt the class. Its a forced situation. Some of the classes being like the job helps it work better but in the end after many levels have been added.. its still going to be a case where some abnormal retcon work will need to take place (imo). Falling even faster if we have duo jobs from one class..

You can start to make class only abilities and then replace those as it transfers into the job - but the consistency and logical flow would be minimum from this. That is the reason why I suggested a visual level system which would easily explain the changes, reductions, and additions. Though the best flow would just to start it from scratch.

[Dzian]

stuff.

So i just typed a post a somehow closed the damn window. then i reopened the browser and find you said everything i was going to

saves me typing it again lol

[Jynx]

I just often wonder why the developers even decided to keep the Class system when they introduced Jobs, and why the still cling to it this day.

It's nigh impossible that the system will be killed even in Beta because it looks like by the time we even touch the Beta the game is going to be pretty thoroughly built. I can only pray that people are quick in pointing out the issues of the Class/Job system during Beta though.

[Shurrikhan]

I just often wonder why the developers even decided to keep the Class system when they introduced Jobs, and why the still cling to it this day.

It's nigh impossible that the system will be killed even in Beta because it looks like by the time we even touch the Beta the game is going to be pretty thoroughly built. I can only pray that people are quick in pointing out the issues of the Class/Job system during Beta though.

I could see why classes possibly ought to be replaced with primary level jobs, but then what does that solve in terms of identity? A soldier job isn't going to get much more advanced or distinct than a well-made gladiator class. And on the other hand, I'd rather not step out of my starter town's gates for the first time as a full-fledged Dragoon. Sure, I could be level 1, virtually useless (which again solves no identity issues) but that already means I have the spirit of a dragon, to some extent, within me. Why would that be the case when I've done nothing? You could say I came here already trained, but how would it make sense for me to be identified in title as a "Dragoon" when I can barely hold a spear straight, and get one-shotted by a level 10 marmot? And how would that work for any future job?

Classes are basically the same primary level classes that the Tactics system has already employed, but without completely limiting the uses of one's experience elsewhere. Anyone can pick up a sword and figure out how to swing it. One does not necessarily pick up a club and suddenly know how to steal monster abilities or a rapier and know how to use nastily precise flame magic. Any game that starts at an actual beginning, with a cumulative sense of experience, will in some way found itself on classes. From the weapons used, one infers an advantageous mindset, and therein style. You could argue that eventually that style can exist even in the use of other weapons, or that styles may be merged, and I'd agree completely. But it's not the classes that need to go. It's the poor execution of learning and crossing skills, mechanics of range and strategy that would produce different results under these different styles, and jobs being treated mostly as just another class rather than a point of one's own experience.

[Draucant]

How I think they should implement the dual classes is say for Marauder, with the great axe they have the weaponskills and abilities they have now but for their second weapon which could be dual wielding 2 axes they have all new weaponskills and abilities. Now they cant pick the great axe skills if they are dual wielding the axes, and for picking abilities and weaponskills from other classes you pick which set you want. An example would be with gladiator is sword and shield or greatsword. You would only be able to either or set of skill and not from both. Now as a marauder/warrior as a tank you would want the sword and shield version but as a DD you would pick the greatsword.

This would also give a bit of a difference between a marauder/warrior from one another. You could have one with more of a tank role and have another focusing more on DDing.

[Jynx]

I could see why classes possibly ought to be replaced with primary level jobs, but then what does that solve in terms of identity?

The crux of your argument is that you seem to think that just because someone calls me a Dragoon that I'm some Dragon Eating machine.

Let's take XI for a example, having a job title pretty much means that is your characters aspiring to be the pinacle of ____ Job. In the case of "Advanced" jobs that came before you unlocked the abillities and connections related to that class through quests, but let's keep it simple at first.

I am a level 1 warrior, that means my goal is to become the biggest badass with a variaty of weapons, I focus on demolishing my targets with sheer power and have high health to back myself up. At level one I am just that compared to my companions of other jobs, yet I still can be killed by a mandragora because this is the beginning of my journey, through the trials and hardships I experience as I (level up) become stronger and more skilled as a Warrior, learning many things of my classes history and abillities from my seniors (AF quests)

Just because I was called a Warrior when I left the gates of my home town, doesn't mean I was the biggest badass this side of the Sarutabaruta. It however did mean what my characters goals and aspirations were as I grew.

[Shurrikhan]

Just because I was called a Warrior when I left the gates of my home town, doesn't mean I was the biggest badass this side of the Sarutabaruta. It however did mean what my characters goals and aspirations were as I grew.

No, but it does mean that you have a clear idea of your own style and how to get to that said pinnacle. That would not be the case for someone just starting out. I'm not saying that a Dragoon is a title that should be reserved for the best among level-capped characters. Far from it. But it is a difference in idea and pursuit that isn't going to just randomly exist in the mind of someone new to the world. There are motifs and occurrences or inspirations that would be experienced first. To be honest, a 30/15 split is a decent enough point in terms of time to acquire a job [though even then I do feel it should differ reasonably between jobs, as in the following]. I just feel it ought to be something less arbitrary, again, closer to a matter of freer story, content, and decisions than merely making level requirements and following something prescribed.

One should be able to pursue the strengths that a Dragoon niches itself in while still a Lancer. The strength of not having that vivid idea of your style or following is that it's more malleable. That doesn't mean you unlearn everything; only what's exclusive to those more deepened ideas and motifs possessed by those jobs.

Again:

It's not the classes that need to go. It's the poor execution of learning and crossing skills, mechanics of range and strategy that would produce different results under these different styles, and jobs being treated mostly as just another class rather than a point of one's own experience.

[Alaltus]

I kind of think that Classes need to step back if they are going to stay at all. Let them remain being good at casual soloing etc to help the newer players but the Classes should just become basically weapon professions (Which they pretty much already are). They can also remain as pre-requisites for Jobs but ultimately Jobs should be entirely separated from Classes. Instead allow a Job to pick from either all Weapons/Classes or a specified few dependent on the Job. Jobs could gain abilities/traits etc etc from acquiring Job Points(JP) and like what Shougun has been saying unlock new tiers of abilities through the completion of quests etc.

Something like this could be done any number of ways i would imagine.

[darkstarpoet1]

honestly, i loved the class system and was happy when they mentioned bringing in jobs. the problem was they made the classes nothing more than a job and then added jobs on top of that. they should have left classes as able to do multiple things at once and branched the jobs off of them and by doing so you would lose some of the classes abilities, but picked up more advanced skills for the jobs.

let's look at just the 2 mage classes.
thm was able to nuke with umbral/astral and dot was it's 2 main things it did along with cross classing.
you add black mage and you would have lost the thm abilities to dot, but picked up stronger nukes.
you could then add arcanist and with it you would lose the nukes, but get better dot's

whm could heal and use elemental nukes as it's 2 main things as well as cross class skills.
you add white mage and lose the elemental nukes, but increase its healing
you could add another mage for elemental nukes, but it would lose the healing ability.

by doing things this way they would have been able to make the jobs completely different from each other even though they started as the same class originally. the way it's done now is thm is now nothing more than a nuking class and black mage is the same thing so you basically turned thm into black mage as well. the problem is with the way classes are now there is nothing else they resemble to be another job it could spawn. i just think they limited the class system way too far to be able to branch multiple jobs off of them so they may as well remove classes all together. i would have loved to seen the classes expanded upon instead of restricted so far.

[Radacci]

It's such a mess though.
If you got lv 50 LNC, i would make sense for DRG to be lv 50 also, since DRG use spear also; you should know how to fight with a spear, from being a LNC previously. It's fine if Job progression start at 30, but it should be spaced out less, so you can unlock a new skill every 3 lv, instead of 5; so you can fit in more Job skills by 50. Jobs are advanced classes, so it wouldn't be appropriate if it started earlier, and learning lower lv skills. Job skills should all be 30+

Well since people are mostly complaining about WHM and BLM, that WHM should be restricted from using elemental skills...what would DRG be restricted from using from LNC? or is the problem only in the skill sets of CNJ, THM, BLM?
It would be nice if classes didn't become Obsolete though, after capping a job...