Necromancer: Discussion of the dead

[yoshikwalla]

...Wow, this escalated rather quickly. I guess I'll throw in my thoughts, then? Though I'm a bit hesitant to give it given the fact that for the last 3 pages you've been ripping each other's heads off. /readies flame shield

...Why not add Necromancy? The ability to turn defeated, non-boss enemies into undead thralls sounds awesome. Yes, they are generally considered as enemy classes, but that doesn't mean players shouldn't play as them. Not all players want to be the goody two-shoes "Teh warrieh oph laiiiighhhttt" generic good guys, and the game shouldn't force them into that role.

Necromancy is bad? Let it be bad. Let the players be bad if they want to. It sure would make for an interesting job questline. It's about time FFXIV embraced the antihero. Necromancers, Thieves, Ninjas, Assassins, Dark Knights, and the like.

Is it Final Fantasy-ish? Not really, but that shouldn't be an excuse not to add something. Yes, this is a Final Fantasy game, but the fact that it is shouldn't limit the game on what should be added. That makes for a creative nightmare. If the same mindset that people are now showing existed around Final Fantasy's infancy, then Cecil wouldn't have been a Dark Knight, the Onion Knight would have never existed, Final Fantasy Tactics would have been less interesting, Lightning wouldn't be a badass L'Cie, Cloud wouldn't be putting Materia onto his gear, Final Fantasy XII wouldn't have badass Star Wars ships, Laguna wouldn't use a gun, Final Fantasy XI would have but a few classes, and the series wouldn't fucking progress. This is a series that's based on putting new things into the Final Fantasy Formula, even pre-FFVII.

[AceofRains]

I think some of ya'll are looking waaaayyy too much into the is Necromancy a good or bad thing.

First of all, I wan't to point of that when SE decide to expand the job pool, what on earth is even a viable thing to build for thaumaturge? I think all signs definatly point to something such as Necromancer.

Second, It matters not if necromancer is good or bad, because the intentions can be good or bad, such as how they wanted to resurrect Ascilia's father. I mean as an adventurer your somewhat neutral to opinions in the first place. This is to play a party role, not a battlefield ethic.

And third, for goodness sake, this wasn't supposed to be a discussion about yes or no Necromancer, this is a discussion about the function of Necromancer and how it could best serve a party.

Lastly I just wanted to say I apologize if the Necromancer discussion was recently held, I have stopped checking the forums a lot until recently because of the circle jerk notion of these threads.

[Andrien]

No need to apologize OP, some are just ill informed, and others quick to say no. If you're passionate about this job type then defend it.

I think SE will find a use to bring Sacrifice back.

[AceofRains]

No need to apologize OP, some are just ill informed, and others quick to say no. If you're passionate about this job type then defend it.

I think SE will find a use to bring Sacrifice back.

I appreciate it man!

Sacrifice is something I wanted to discuss as an ability. It took some of your own HP to heal someone correct? Like I said in the OP I really think it if they designed this job to feel like an undead [like taking damage from cure but being able to raise themselves] then damaging your own HP with sacrifice would feel somewhat impractical no? So I thought that sacrificing a summoned pet would be a better mechanic. Thoughts?

[KoujiGeki]

i Know. To say that It doesn't fit into ffXIV is kinda foolish since Uldahs story to fight their past enemies was to resurrect dead soldiers to have unlimited Supply of soldiers.

They're evil? thats a matter of opinion. Is it wrong for someone to be able to say goodbye to you werent able to because some forseen accident? And SE before has made jobs evil go good before. Cecil a Drk in ff4, Drg in ff11, and Summoner in 11 was a forbidden magic by the star sybl yet we could play the job, so to just say it CANT BE DONE is a rather foolish statement. All you need is a story which 14 kinda has so if they dont wanna do it is just out of laziness cause i know a crap ton of people including myself on Masamune that would love Necromancer to come out.

Who is to say a necromancer cant have a change of heart and use his magic for good? Cause lets see how many characters in the ff series have gone good to evil. Kain and Terra prime examples. so why cant some Bad go to the good?

[NoloeTazier]

I appreciate it man!

Sacrifice is something I wanted to discuss as an ability. It took some of your own HP to heal someone correct? Like I said in the OP I really think it if they designed this job to feel like an undead [like taking damage from cure but being able to raise themselves] then damaging your own HP with sacrifice would feel somewhat impractical no? So I thought that sacrificing a summoned pet would be a better mechanic. Thoughts?

It healed and also gave a Regen effect yeah. Problem with trying to Zombify mobs is you can't target and cast Cure/Raise on mobs. You could make it pretty "dark" all around and a decent support mage. Consider the abilities to drain your own HP to heal allies (Sacrifice) and the ability to drain your own MP and give it to allies (Syphon maybe?). ATM it's hard for me to imagine it as a support-pet job because I haven't seen Summoner and what it can do, with Beastmaster being a more DD oriented Job and melee/mid-range fighter, I can only compare it to Summoner. So I'd have to see what kind of Support/Debuffs Summoner offers, then play off strengths and weaknesses for a Necromancer.

What weapon could a Necromancer use?

[AceofRains]

It healed and also gave a Regen effect yeah. Problem with trying to Zombify mobs is you can't target and cast Cure/Raise on mobs. You could make it pretty "dark" all around and a decent support mage. Consider the abilities to drain your own HP to heal allies (Sacrifice) and the ability to drain your own MP and give it to allies (Syphon maybe?). ATM it's hard for me to imagine it as a support-pet job because I haven't seen Summoner and what it can do, with Beastmaster being a more DD oriented Job and melee/mid-range fighter, I can only compare it to Summoner. So I'd have to see what kind of Support/Debuffs Summoner offers, then play off strengths and weaknesses for a Necromancer.

What weapon could a Necromancer use?

Yeah I definately would not support a Zombify ability at this moment, maybe in the future. I do hope they making healing damage the undead though, that should be a standard at this point.

I'd say the pet part is a nessescity because in its own right, necromancer is a type of summoner. I really can't wait for new updates on Arcanist and Summoner though. The cross class abilities that an arcanist has is going to be really pivotal to pet controls for other classes such as beast master, or even puppet master. Otherwise they might make an independent pet control system, or a completely different pet class altogether.

If I were to compare it to summoner, and I couldn't say for sure until the summoner job is out, I'd say that summoner focuses more on stronger elemental pets, and enhancements and debuffs, while Necromancer is something rather that would focus on basic magic casting along with heals. Both have a pet dps but necromancer would be slighty weaker in the pet dps area and stronger in the actual spell casting area. Whereas summoner would have a high output of damage coming from their pet, and minimal damage for casting basic spells and DoTs. Very speculative, but if I were to implement both of these classes and make them unique, that's how I'd try to do it.

[Andrien]

There was a good chunk of spells that was removed like one of the best ones, Shadowsear.

THM also had a lot of other spells that wasn't implemented like the one for Lv32.
Mass Fear. "Instill pure terror in an enemy, causing the target to flee."

Now that sounds like a Necromancer spell to me lol.

[Reika]

...Wow, this escalated rather quickly. I guess I'll throw in my thoughts, then? Though I'm a bit hesitant to give it given the fact that for the last 3 pages you've been ripping each other's heads off. /readies flame shield

...Why not add Necromancy? The ability to turn defeated, non-boss enemies into undead thralls sounds awesome. Yes, they are generally considered as enemy classes, but that doesn't mean players shouldn't play as them. Not all players want to be the goody two-shoes "Teh warrieh oph laiiiighhhttt" generic good guys, and the game shouldn't force them into that role.

Necromancy is bad? Let it be bad. Let the players be bad if they want to. It sure would make for an interesting job questline. It's about time FFXIV embraced the antihero. Necromancers, Thieves, Ninjas, Assassins, Dark Knights, and the like.

Is it Final Fantasy-ish? Not really, but that shouldn't be an excuse not to add something. Yes, this is a Final Fantasy game, but the fact that it is shouldn't limit the game on what should be added. That makes for a creative nightmare. If the same mindset that people are now showing existed around Final Fantasy's infancy, then Cecil wouldn't have been a Dark Knight, the Onion Knight would have never existed, Final Fantasy Tactics would have been less interesting, Lightning wouldn't be a badass L'Cie, Cloud wouldn't be putting Materia onto his gear, Final Fantasy XII wouldn't have badass Star Wars ships, Laguna wouldn't use a gun, Final Fantasy XI would have but a few classes, and the series wouldn't fucking progress. This is a series that's based on putting new things into the Final Fantasy Formula, even pre-FFVII.

That is something important to put into the brain too. Every FF game since the first one has had something Different about it than the last. Even XI had jobs that didn't exsist in other FF games. Thats how FF games Have always been. Something new every time. Systems you weren't use to. Enemies you've never seen before. Final Fantasy is whatever the hell they can think of, not X or Y. Its everything. PLD is FF, WHM is FF, NEC is FF.

[Zantetsuken]

Necromancer is just not a FF-ish 'heroic job'. Running around with corpses and skeletons as minions is what villains in a FF game do -- and we aren't villains.

Even the (non-western/non-traditional) form of Necromancer Job in FFV:Advanced serves as the exception that proves the rule.

The dev team had looked at necromancer-style play for FFXI, and that is where they came up with the more FF-thematic 'Puppetmaster'. You have a much better chance of seeing that job surface at some point in FFXIV, than you would with Necromancer.

And then there's the Chinese undead censorship issue.

Here's how I see it:

• Do you want to summon otherworldly beings? Get ready for Summoner
• Do you want to have a mindless minion that follows your every whim? Ask for Puppetmaster Job
  
• Do you want to command powerful monsters attack your foes? Lobby for Beastmaster Job
  
• Do you specifically want to play an ~~Eeeeevillll~ western-style Necromancer with hordes of grotesque undead minions? I'm sorry, but please look elsewhere, 'Final Fantasy' might not be your thing...

"but I waaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnt it..."

As far as the mechanics of the OP's proposal? It's not bad, but I can see the self-resurrection thing being quite difficult to balance. Imagine any fight where the PT spams that job... Plus it would be heavily broken in PvP.