Necromancer: Discussion of the dead

[Reika]

I was playing in 1.0 beta. but didn't play THM then.
Sure, but would you rather be resurrected by blowing up a corpse, or holy magic? And i wouldn't mind if Raise was WHM spell rather than CNJ. Reviving people from the dead is supposed to be impossible, if i remember THM quest.
I look at it like, you don't actually *die* in-game, you just become incapacitated. Someone can be theoretically dead, but you can bring them back with surgery, and defibrillator; Raise is just a way to bring back someone who is close to dying. Lorewise there's no way to bring back the dead, short of necromancy, bringing people back as zombies. Otherwise it would be pretty convenient for CNJ to just revive all heroes, if they died from Bahamut.

I don't remember the details of THM quests, but i think it was just that Lal female that was crazy, and the THM guild didn't approve, and would have delt with her themselves, if we hadn't; so the graverobbing wasn't really a THM thing, just a crazy ass greedy Lal who thought she was doing people a service, by killing them; and making some personal profit from it.

There's a difference between *guiding the dead* to the afterlife, and defiling corpses; using them as tools. Most religions use some form of guiding the dead to the afterlife: that doesn't mean it has anything to do with necromancy, or healing. Though i guess you could see THM as some kind of shadow priests, that can heal also.
But there was 2 versions of THM in 1.0, and we'll see what happens in ARR, what we can make of it then
THM healing to some extent might make sense, but having some creepy necro as party healer would be a no-no. Realistically speaking everyone would be repulsed by it, except other necros i guess.

I want Resurrect back, because my zombie resurrection macro just doesnt sound the same with (Raise). Yes, that macro was made BECAUSE it went along with THM lore, and extremely humorous at the same time. It wasnt as good once they butcherd THM and took its heals and resurrect away...

And as long as we make sure to properly dispose of any corpses we raise to serve us, i dont see what the big deal is

[Kinseykinz]

Thats a little out there, but its not far out there. Dark Knight is something I'm highly doubtful we will see comming from thaumaturge and most certainly not used for healing the party. BUT Dark Knight can function with strong life steal, something I meantioned earlier in the thread about using being a lancer using Life Surge, Necrogensis [with your choice of spell], Drain, Bloodbath from maruader, and A Blood Sword Skill.

I believe DRK would be awesome utilizing cross class abilities from Marauder and Thaumaturge, making it into a kind of offensive life steal tank.

I'd also like to question how the Necromancer I designed is overpowered? I'm sure balancing needs consideration in stats first before you can deem something overpowered. This design also has it's deficiencies so I'm actually pretty positive its not OP. Perhaps it was the perpetual Resurrection? I think that can be limited to only be activated either once every increment of minutes or only if you die while your 15 minute ability is active. That type of passive is actually something that exists in League of Legends on the champion Anivia, the cryophoenix. When she dies she reverts to an egg form and for a few seconds if the egg is not killed she will be Resurrected. Annoying for enemy players but its actually not game breaking.

I believe there's no reason to be limited in what a job can do to give it the right feel, I believe how ever restricting how it does these things is what gives balance to the job.

Nice pun btw :P

It's over-powered because of what you want it to do + what a Necromancer should actually be. No one chooses to play necromancer for it's 'heals'... healing characters are typically virtuous. People play Necromancers for the destruction/damage they can bring about. Basically, what you are trying to create is a 'evil' Conjurer-WHM that also has a pet. In order to accomplish all of this 1 of 3 things would need to happen:
1. Job gets decent damage/healing and pet dd skills but is OP compared to other party roles but does in fact play and feel like a Necromancer should
2. Job gets low-level to modest damage/healing and pet dd skills to be in-line with other party roles but no longer feels 'Nercromancer-powerful like'
3. The job is created, but is missing one of the types of damage/healing you are suggesting. IE Can sacrifice heal and summon a pet, but can't do spell or physical damage with out pet. Or can spell dd and heal but no pet etc.

...By the way, a Summoned corpse is basically the same thing as a pet.

As to the Dark Knight hypothesis: Its a valid way to create one...esp. given the current in-game lore and classes. I was just trying to point out that it is the more likely job to be created using some of the same skills you were hoping to include in the game, and that it is more plausible at the moment than Necromancer.

[AceofRains]

I don't think Black Mage will ever stop being awesome unless it's blatantly nerfed. However, why not... *rummages through wiki pages*...AHA! Sage. Sage is usually unique to specific characters, but appeared as a playable job in FFIII and TA/TA2. It's known for using the strongest spells in the game, but I think to balance this SE could incorporate them as slow but powerful casters. They could be given non-elemental nukes like Ultima and Scathe, for the players that want to see BIG BOOMS!

They could also go with Red Mage. Give it access to Conjury and Thaumaturgy, give it some sort of chainspell or multi-cast ability, and it doesn't necessarily need a sword. I mean, apparently Archer doesn't need to be Ranger, so all bets are off for weapon types.

Honestly, I've considered things like sage and red mage for it, BUT there is one reason why it would feel wrong and that is for sage, a lack of balanced elements, and for red mage, a lack of melee weaponry, as well as balanced elements. Rather if you look at the word document I made, these jobs can actually be better implemented under other classes to give it the right feel. I think it would be disappointing to have these jobs one sided to destruction magic, and kinda fall off with other magic types.

Not sure I would do sage in a game like ffxiv because its something that uses both white and black magic at high capacity, kinda ultimately defeating the point of black and white mage. Works better on an offline game? However, their cousin Scholar would be an excellent candidate considering they use lower level magic, use items at better potential, and can examine enemy weak points, but this is something I'd rather see as a second job on arcanist, considering their "genius" style and use of books.

ah I missed that last part about archer/ranger. If by anything you are referring to the fact that we got bard first and that bard uses bows, there are multiple instances of that in mmos. Also I still am convinced bards may eventually get an instrument, looking back at the 2.0 concept and the bard holding a flue. In addition archers were given the barrage skills, to which fairly positive they will be adding that Ranged dps we all love to archer in the future. They rather needed bard at this point or there would be an influx towards dps, and a lack of support in 1.0.

[AceofRains]

It's over-powered because of what you want it to do + what a Necromancer should actually be. No one chooses to play necromancer for it's 'heals'... healing characters are typically virtuous. People play Necromancers for the destruction/damage they can bring about. Basically, what you are trying to create is a 'evil' Conjurer-WHM that also has a pet. In order to accomplish all of this 1 of 3 things would need to happen:
1. Job gets decent damage/healing and pet dd skills but is OP compared to other party roles but does in fact play and feel like a Necromancer should
2. Job gets low-level to modest damage/healing and pet dd skills to be in-line with other party roles but no longer feels 'Nercromancer-powerful like'
3. The job is created, but is missing one of the types of damage/healing you are suggesting. IE Can sacrifice heal and summon a pet, but can't do spell or physical damage with out pet. Or can spell dd and heal but no pet etc.

...By the way, a Summoned corpse is basically the same thing as a pet.

As to the Dark Knight hypothesis: Its a valid way to create one...esp. given the current in-game lore and classes. I was just trying to point out that it is the more likely job to be created using some of the same skills you were hoping to include in the game, and that it is more plausible at the moment than Necromancer.

I'd say option two is the best. You only attach negative emotion with it by saying it wouldn't be all powerful. But thats not the point. The point is that we've brought balance to a job that can dps as well as heal and be fair about it. If you want powerful look at the 15 minute ability, or how about the fact that if you die you get a free raise on your self? The reason I even considered Necromancer to play like this is because A) FFV's felt very black magish and fit with thaumaturge considering the spells they get [fire, thunder, ice]. B) If you deal with death you deal with life as well. If we made necromancer into something that was pure dps like black mage or too similar to summoner what the hell would be the point? You would be creating jobs that have no sense of identity. I say why not a model like this? It's fun, original, and actually isn't too far off from what the actual idea should be. Especially with two Raise skills to support the party. It just makes sense to me.

[AceofRains]

I wrote a brief lore if anyone is interested.

The Thaumaturges of the Arrzaneth Ossuary dedicate their practices to the guidence of souls to the the realm of thal. Yet their is a clandestine group among them who seek to bring the deceased back into the realm of the living.

The lost art of Necromancy brought the promise to see loved ones again, but the dead do not like their slumber disturbed. Unspeakable horrors unfolded, breaking the barrier between life and death. Ashkin began to roam the nights of Eorzea freely and it was decided the in order to bring balance to the land, Necromancy must be sealed to never be practiced again.

[NoloeTazier]

I wrote a brief lore if anyone is interested.

The Thaumaturges of the Arrzaneth Ossuary dedicate their practices to the guidence of souls to the the realm of thal. Yet their is a clandestine group among them who seek to bring the deceased back into the realm of the living.

The lost art of Necromancy brought the promise to see loved ones again, but the dead do not like their slumber disturbed. Unspeakable horrors unfolded, breaking the barrier between life and death. Ashkin began to roam the nights of Eorzea freely and it was decided the in order to bring balance to the land, Necromancy must be sealed to never be practiced again.

The problem with Necromancy in FFXIV Lore is the only case of revival of the dead was the Sil'dih Sultan. The dead could not be controlled and the Ul'dah Army sealed the Sil'dih gates, so the Sil'dih people were stuck inside with roaming. That's why there are skeletons and zombies inside the Copperbell Mines. Now the Sil'dih people may still be alive or atleast remnants (not zombies) may still be alive, no one can be sure yet.

The Syndicate would never allow Necromancy to be taken up within Ul'dah. The Milvaneth Sacrarium would never allow it either. For it to work, Necromancy would have to be taught outside the City States.

[AceofRains]

The problem with Necromancy in FFXIV Lore is the only case of revival of the dead was the Sil'dih Sultan. The dead could not be controlled and the Ul'dah Army sealed the Sil'dih gates, so the Sil'dih people were stuck inside with roaming. That's why there are skeletons and zombies inside the Copperbell Mines. Now the Sil'dih people may still be alive or atleast remnants (not zombies) may still be alive, no one can be sure yet.

The Syndicate would never allow Necromancy to be taken up within Ul'dah. The Milvaneth Sacrarium would never allow it either. For it to work, Necromancy would have to be taught outside the City States.

So I kinda hit the nail on the head their with the lore no? There was a catastrophe due to Necromancy, and a CLANDESTINE group within the Ossuary practices (or at least attempts to practice it.) and if they are clandestine they would probably leave the city under the cover of night. To which as a job quest you would meet said person in the guild and then they would tell you to meet them outside the city somewhere at night time.

[Bita]

I'm sorry but i have no desire to see Necromancer as a playable job in ARR. What i would like to see is the implementation of classic yet unpopular jobs such as Geomancer and Time Mage.

[KoujiGeki]

I just dont get why peopl are so adaman about not wanting Necro? It doesn't fit? Well there story so it can. Not use in FF besides the remake of 5? IMO thats even a BETTER reason why it should be added its something NEW. I would straight up give up Legacy to add Necromancy. Yes im glad Yoshi-p is adding older jobs to appease the masses. But something alittle new once and a while would be awesome. Its not like it be hard to add with a story thats already, there to work with and spell that were removed but were in game give them those, add a summon skeleton, Golden.

[AceofRains]

I just dont get why peopl are so adaman about not wanting Necro? It doesn't fit? Well there story so it can. Not use in FF besides the remake of 5? IMO thats even a BETTER reason why it should be added its something NEW. I would straight up give up Legacy to add Necromancy. Yes im glad Yoshi-p is adding older jobs to appease the masses. But something alittle new once and a while would be awesome. Its not like it be hard to add with a story thats already, there to work with and spell that were removed but were in game give them those, add a summon skeleton, Golden.

Agreed, if you don't want a certain job then don't play it if its gonna be a problem. I really have high hopes for FFXIV try new things along with the old.