Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[AceofRains]

I have to object, actually. I really hope that Blizzard and Water are the two elements that remain branch-specific, not to be cross-classed. Seeing as SE seems to be locking magic amongst DoM, it then falls to lore. For a CNJ to borrow Ice powers is ludicrous - ice can never be used for restoration or protection. At least fire and lightning both can, where warmth and ash fertilise and promote growth in the forests. Ice decays and frosts what it touches - it can never provide the duties conjurers have. On the same level, water is too deeply ingrained as part of the regenerative aspects of elements. For Thaumaturges to utilise a regenerative power as a tool for destruction is absurd. Lore wise, I don't think it's good to mix them.

Seriously you people need to stop making this about lore, and as a class I dont think you should be restricted on level one magic, ffs its the lowest tier version of the magic. I'm not talking about Conjurers being able to use freeze, I'm talking about any class From Gladiator to Thaumaturge, having the ability to use the lowest tier of each magic element and nothing else.

Besides that, what you say makes absolutely no sense, Ice is frozen water. And Ice also has restorative properties, and it also have preservative properties so your argument is so flawed it just disappoints me.

[dbrewer225]

Stanley you have hit the nail on the head. everything you just said is basically what alot of people are complaining about. I agree with you that ff14 needs its own identity instead of it being ff11 v.2. People need to adjust to new ideas and innovations. If people dont like ff14 being ff11 then go play ff11. Again, people need to adjust to the changes or be left behind. Case in point, yoshi and the team know what they are doing. Its amazing that any other MMO out there dont consider player feedback, and this is the first MMO that acually kept its word. So everybody, shut it up and let go of the ff11 mentality, cause its getting old. Lol watch this im gonna get flamed for speaking my thought, but geez man the compalaints on this game is OVER 9000.

[Klive]

This thread feels like this to me:

"OMG! SE did something different! I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THAT! Change it back!!!"

/presspanicbutton

Not saying that everyone is acting like that, but sure is how I feel when I read these posts.

[Altena]

I also don't see the need to remove it either. Why must WHM have divine spells in this version of a White Mage? White Mages are a specialisation of Conjurer, a class which originates from Gridania and thus has direct relations with its lore and every other aspect of the Black Shroud. I'm not seeing it as my beautiful WHM losing its nukes - I'm seeing you as trying to strip Conjurer off it's elemental affinity.

Divine spells are iconic to WHM. Once again, the CNJ and THM lore is already butchered because of the changes in early 1.0. I don't see "stripping CNJ of their elemental affinity" when there is little to no affinity in the version we know. Removing them from the skillset would help create one. Simplifying the elementals to one class would help improve the ability to take advantage of affinity and actually make it a game mechanic.

Also, Water Wind and Earth have NEVER been iconic elements of a BLM until FFX. Heck, until FFXI, because Stone and Aero-tiers weren't even present in FFX. The real iconic elements have always been fire, ice and lightning. Rather, by sticking to the three elements, they have made BLM the 'iconic' BLM. I find it funny that FFXI becomes the first game to have all six elemental tiers on one job, and suddenly it's the 'iconic' black mage setup.

That is actually wrong.
Quake was a BLM spell in the following FF's:
-FF1
-FF3
-FF4
-FF6
-FF11
(I didn't mention 7&8 due to their spell systems, however see the trend?)

That is just an example, I won't bother looking up the rest.

Spell affinity wasn't negligible mainly due to splitting up the elements. It was because we lost a huge array of debuffs and DoTs, so if they wanted to stick it onto spells, they had to compromise something, which was damage. What you should be fixing is rather removing that debuff effect and instead increasing the power of each spell so they are relatively comparable. Even if you have all six elements on one job, if 5 of those elements were instead linked to a debuff and lowered damage output, well...not exactly a fix, is there? Nobody was using weaknesses because of the DEBUFFS rather than the fact that there were not enough elements. Garuda is inherently weak to ice - why was everyone spamming Thunder on her, even though the wheel of creation states that Garuda is strong towards lightning element? Because Ice lost its damage for debuffs while Thunder is the all omni-potent damage dealing.

Once again I will state that I never said it would totally "fix" the issue, it would just improve its current effectiveness. I never denied that the spells themselves need to be reworked / tweaked in order to allow the community to actually use elemental affinity, however splitting the spells on seperate classes means to truly take advantage of affinity you would have to pick between the "inconic" elemental caster vs. the elemental/healer hybrid. I don't deny that WHM can do some damage, but pigeon holing the job advertised as the "mage damage dealer" into only 50% of the elements isn't exactly favourable to elemental affinity.

CNJ is always going to have the "healer" tag associated with it, despite its ability to deal damage. This basically means that the elements associated with this class are inevitably going to be gimped, as you can't have 2 equally powerful damage spellcasters, but 1 of which can also heal.. Thus it reduces the chance of elemental affinity being viable.

You're trying to get a currently balanced discipline (Conjurer/White Mage) to change in order to fix a broken discipline (Thaumaturge/Black Mage). Rather, you should be focusing on fixing what is broken in that particular discipline rather then say "fuck the lore, just change it and let me have my perfect BLM because XI did it" which is all I'm hearing from what you say.

No, I am trying to improve the mechanic of a boring job, by slightly modifying another with a few name changes and animations . . At the moment, I only play BLM when I absolutely *have* to. I am sure a lot of people are in that boat, because it is currently (as we know) a fairly simplistic/boring job. I don't care if it is "my ideal and perfect BLM", I just care for playing a job that is both fun and engaging. Currently it is not.

Also, you sound tense. I think you need a massage.

Since you say screw the lore in this game, why can't they change the lore from the 'classic' FF lore as you so like so CNJ/WHM is more affiliated with nature rather than the divine? There is no divine interactions in a region focused on natural progression such as Gridania - having Conjurer change it's lore to divine is out of the question as you would have to change Gridania's lore, and by extension, Archer's lore and Lancer's lore and Botanist's lore and storyline lore....pretty much rewriting the whole thing. It's not so simple as you think becuase CONJURER IS NOT INDEPENDENT. The fact that the continent blew up doesn't change anything. Rather, it would make conjurers focus more on healing the forest and become more INGRAINED with those elementals. I don't think people of Gridania will go "Oh, our forest is burning, let me pray and hope it all stops."

Wow you are blowing everything out of proportion here. Previously CNJ's had access to "destructive" spells, if I may kindly remind you. In fact they were effectively the more ideal BLM in some regards in my opinion (as they had all of the elements). So in actual fact the "lore" that you keep falling back to needs to be repaired as it is. No, gridania's lore does not have to change. Nor does any other classes' lore, aside from an already broken CNJ and THM lore. You keep falling back to this all important epic storyline that only 1/4 of the community probably actually read / followed instead of enter spam. I can have a guess that some of your beloved "lore" will be modified on some level in order to fit into the direction of the game.

This is all a problem with BLM, so stop trying to change WHM to suit your wants of a BLM. We don't require all elements on one job, we don't require the exchange of powers for others for a discipline which works perfectly fine. If you want your 'iconic' BLM, go back to FFXI which is rather the non-iconic version of BLM. We have the BLM from FFI here using the three main ethereal elements - I wonder why there were no complaints about those back in the day?

You sound really angry. Elemental spells have predominantly been black magic, not white. See my example above.

Changing lore isn't going to work. You'll have to mess up all the lore for the other disciplines, cities and regional lore because of one 'small' change, which it isn't. Yes, I am butthurt, but not about WHM - I am butthurt about losing my elemental spells for Conjurer. Once you see that you're also messing up CNJ with what you say, and trying to mess up every other bit of the game as well, perhaps you can see that the solution you're looking for to fix BLM is not to f*** up WHM and CNJ.

Yep I am trying to break the game and make it absolutely unbearable for you to play a class that is sub-optimal for practically any content worth talking about. I am in this to destroy your gaming experience by changing a couple of spell names and enhancing elemental affinity across the board of the game... I am evil and I am out to get you...

Fix BLM as a BLM. Not as a WHM to fix BLM. Because right now, BLM is the one that has to be changed, not with WHM to sacrifice itself to build YOUR ideal BLM.

Once again, it isn't about BLM only, it would improve elemental affinity across the board. Play BLM if you like nuking so much.

Ironic thing is that in terms of iconic builds, FFXI and FFXIV are opposites for WHM and BLM. BLM was the all-ruler of elements in FFXI which the iconic BLM was not (only fire ice and thunder, and powerful non-elemental spells). WHM was the all divine iconic healer/priest in FFXI while WHM is more of a nature's prophet in FFXIV. Lets see how an iconic BLM and a different WHM works in ARR first, why don't we?

I don't recall playing any FF's where WHM could cast "nature" nukes.. I am sure there is one or 2 somewhere in the series, however to say that BLM has only been limited to fire/blizzard/thunder aside from X&XI is horse poo. Again: see example above.

Last thing - people seem to be neglecting to link THM with BLM and CNJ with WHM when it comes to ability change proposals. Bear that in mind and think about ALL sides of the lore, functions, cross-class skill management, role and usefulness when proposing ideas.

Ok so swapping spells is going to affect other current jobs aside from WHM and BLM how? Sure THM&CNJ (as their classes) however I can't recall ever using Aero on Paladin or BRD . . .

Once again this thread isn't totally proposing this to be changed because realistically - it won't happen. The game is too far along to fix elemental affinity to something usable in the state that it is in. The thread was more of a discussion, to gather ideas or speculate what and how it [i]could[i] be improved.

If 1 class had all the elements, the elemental affinity would be a more viable mechanic, along with some slight spell adjustments, without overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting.

[Altena]

If you want to have access to stone and aero spells whats the big deal playing thm? I do it. I actually prefer thm over blm so I CAN use those spells. With thm I have way more survivability, too squishy as blm lol. BLM doesnt have to have all the elemental spells, for the OP to say whm is "butthurt" (freakin hate that stupid term -_-) it sounds more like you are "butthurt" that BLM isnt all super badass.

I couldn't give a rats about mages all in all. I barely play them and only play them if I have to. At the moment BLM is boring, so I simply wished it was less-so. THM can't use Stardust Rod. People don't build the top tier stuff to sit in a locker.

You want a more valid reason other then lore reasons, but will it really make a difference to you? You're still going to think blm needs all the elemental spells and whm needs light spells. It's not going to change so I just don't really see the point in ppl fighting or name calling about it. WHM is an advanced version of CNJ. CNJ uses aero/stone. you take that away from whm then you take it away from cnj and you've just messed up a good chunk of how Eorzea is suppose to work.

I am not completely close minded, and if someone has suggestions on improving the currently boring battle mechanic that BLM has, I am yet to see that post. To be honest I think there are a lot more close minded CNJ lovers on here.. I would like things to change but I won't go raging at everyone that doesn't want it changed, like others seem to be.

I think lore is a pretty good reason on its own. I personally like the lore how its set up now.
Besides someone brought up the good point earlier that 50 isn't always going to be the cap.

As I mentioned, CNJ will always have the "healer" tag associated with it. You will be gimping the elements associated with CNJ by having this tag - simply because for balance reasons WHM cannot ever be as strong as BLM in regards to nuking. What would you pick? A job that can nuke, or a job that can nuke & heal with no handicap?

[Altena]

Stanley you have hit the nail on the head. everything you just said is basically what alot of people are complaining about. I agree with you that ff14 needs its own identity instead of it being ff11 v.2. People need to adjust to new ideas and innovations. If people dont like ff14 being ff11 then go play ff11. Again, people need to adjust to the changes or be left behind. Case in point, yoshi and the team know what they are doing. Its amazing that any other MMO out there dont consider player feedback, and this is the first MMO that acually kept its word. So everybody, shut it up and let go of the ff11 mentality, cause its getting old. Lol watch this im gonna get flamed for speaking my thought, but geez man the compalaints on this game is OVER 9000.

I quit FF11 because it got boring. I love FF14, I just hate playing boring jobs when I have to. I am not asking for an FF11 clone, I am asking for more excitement to a currently terrible mechanic.

I'm not flaming anyone :/ I stated even in my OP that this won't realistically happen, and people will disagree with me.

[stanleyyoung]

i almost can't believe that there are so many ppl that cannot move on or adjust to changes even opposed to anything different. Like i said it only takes the slightest change to cause riots & uproar whether its a change in weapon or few skills/abilities or slight alteration in a said job role.

The fact that bard has a bow & shoots stuff to some ppl is plain unacceptable or how whm has three spells and its the worst thing in the whole world. I even seen talk about blue mage if it doesn't have scimitars then SE might as well not add it or dark knight for that matter. If SE were to copy & paste drk exactly from XI with one slight change that it can only use great swords not scythes that ppl will want SE heads on sticks. The list can go on and on with any job to be added in 14 and the ppl thinking/mindset "If it ain't the same from XI, Then we don't want it & will not accept it" gets old and is plain annoying.

Its nice to see that there are some ppl like me who want a game that's unique, fun, and will not only stand out in the rpg genre but the FF franchise itself seeing people open to change and looking for something new/different is cool and good. I personally like how SE not only keeps to tradition but always tries to do something new and be innovative its why i mainly only play FF rpg games. I always have the nostalgia when i play a FF game but seeing SE bringing new things in is great. I personally am at the point where i only play FF rpg's and other rpg's out always boil down to me saying: this game is ok,good, fun, etc etc but its just not Final Fantasy.

[Wilksha]

For those asking for the "elemental wheel" what one of the 3 wheels do you want BLM to have? Yes there is 3. In the THM guild The books on the desk can be targeted in read, in 1.0, and it gave a lot of details on elemental strengths. Fire melts Ice, Ice blocks Wind, Wind puts out Fire. Earth grounds Lightning, Lightning shocks Water, Water best Earth(forget how). And finally Light and dark best each other. This isn't FFXI with one wheel, keep the games separate, they are not equivalent but much beyond the name "Final Fantasy."
The actually Job WHM has only been in a few FF games, FF1(I believe it was 1, could be 2), FF3, FF4, FF5, FF9, and FF11. In FF1 WHM got Areo at least, it's been awhile since I've played 1 or 2. FF3 is where they actually added "Class change" and as you progressed you got more and more class you can change to, FF5 did this as well. FF4's party setup was story based and there was only 2 real WHM, Rosa and Palom. FF9 had 2 WHMs and if I remeber correctly, each had their own special ability besides just healing. THe first was your summoner. in FFXI WHM was Healer and if they weren't in a party as mentioned before could get a good club and does some decennt damage. The rest of the FFs has all characters able to get every ability, excluding FF13. And one thing that every game that has a WHM has in common is that the game is/was centralized around party play. FFXIV for the most part didn't centralize around party play. Nearly everything could be soloed until later quests with NMs or Dungeons. ARR seems to centralize around solo play with quests and leves to level up. With party play involving dungeons and the new FATE system. The new NM are hard to tell if they were part of the FATE system or not, but I believe I read they were part of the FATE system.
As these are my opinions I'm just saying my point of view on this matter. But as far as I see from 1.0 at end time giving WHM 3 elements and BLM 3 elements doesn't really do much to change how the classes them selves were portrayed in the past. Example is that I do not recall a FF other then 11 that gave Black Magic anything beyond Lightning Ice or Fire. In most of them if you wanted a Water ability you had to summon Leviathan or some other water based one, oh have Blue Magic use Aqua Breath or the likes.
Only Problem I have ATM with ARR is the broken lore of CNJ and THM. IF they fix the lore to fit what it currently is, Everything will be just fine and dandy. I think RDM should be the only class that can use all elements but significantly less effective then the natural class it stems from. My mere opinion.

[Molic]

Think it will all be leveled out eventually and each job will be its own and what not.... only thing i fear is how restrictive the i guess armor system or how we gain said spells/abilities/weapon skills is combined with how little room we have on the action bar which at higher lvls might become full. dunno they might have that figured out to though, cant really see the end game quite yet o;

[Asael]

Spell listings for the FF series:

FF I

White Magic
Cure
Harm
Fog
Ruse
Lamp
Mute
Alit
Invisible
Cure 2
Harm 2
Afire
Heal
Pure
Fear
Aice
Amute
Cure 3
Life
Harm 3
Heal 2
Soft
Exit
Fog 2
Invisible 2
Cure 4
Harm 4
Arub
Heal 3
Fade
Wall
Xfer
Life 2

Black Magic
Fire
Sleep
Lock
Lightning
Ice
Dark
Temper
Slow
Fire 2
Hold
Lightning 2
Lock 2
Sleep 2
Fast
Confuse
Ice 2
Fire 3
Bane
Warp
Slow 2
Lightning 3
Rub
Quake
Stun
Ice 3
Break
Saber
Blind
Stop
Zap!
XXXX
Nuke

FF II

White Magic
Cure
Blink
Safe
Shell
Fear
Peep
Heal
Mute
Life
Anti
Exit
Dispel
Mini
Fog
Slow
Barrier
Wall
Change
Beserk
Haste
Charm
Holy

Black Magic
Fire
Ice
Bolt
Warp
Curse
Stone
Stop
Toad
Break
Aura
Aero
Blind
Sleep
Drain
Aspil
Death
Flare
Ultima

FF III (2006 version as I could not find anything on the original 1990 release)

White Magic
Cure
Cura
Curaga
Curaja
Poisona
Sight
Aero
Aeroga
Mini
Toad
Teleport
Blindna
Libra
Confuse
Silence
Raise
Arise
Protect
Stona
Haste
Esuna
Reflect
Tornado
Arise
Holy

Black Magic
Fire
Fira
Firaga
Blizzard
Blizzara
Blizzaga
Thunder
Thundara
Thundaga
Sleep
Blind
Poison
Break
Shade
Raze
Erase
Bio
Warp
Quake
Breakga
Drain
Flare
Death
Meteor

FF IV

White Magic
Cure 1
Cure 2
Cure 3
Cure 4
Esuna
Sight
Life
Mini
Exit
Float
Life 2
Blink
Charm
Shell
Scan
Wall
Hold
Berserk
Holy
Mute
Protect
Slow
Dispel
Haste

Black Magic
Fire 1
Fire 2
Fire 3
Flare
Ice 1
Ice 2
Ice 3
Death
Bolt 1
Bolt 2
Bolt 3
Wind
Venom
Stone
Bio
Quake
Meteo (Meteor)
Psych
Drain
Sleep
Toad
Piggy
Warp

FF V

White Magic
Cure 1
Libra
Pure
Quiet
Safe
Mini
Cure 2
Raise
Charm
Blink
Shell
Esuna
Cure 3
Wall
Berserk
Arise
Holy
Dispel

Black Magic
Fire
Ice
Bolt
Poison
Sleep
Toad
Fire 2
Ice 2
Bolt 2
Drain
Break
Bio
Fire 3
Ice 3
Bolt 3
Flare
Death
Aspil

Time Magic
Speed
Slow
Regen
Mute
Fast
Float
Demi
Stop
Exit
Comet
Slow 2
Return
Quarter
Fast 2
Old
Meteo
Quick
Xzone

Blue Magic
Condemn
Roulette
AquaBreath
L5 Doom
L4 Gravity
L2 Old
L3 Flare
Frog Song
Melody
Flash
Time Slip
Moon Flute
Death Claw
Aero
Aero 2
Aero 3
Emission
Goblin Punch
Dark Shock
Guard Off
Fusion
Mind Blast
Blood Suck
Magic Hammer
Big Guard
Exploder
????
Blow Fish
White Wind
Missile

FF VI (I listed the spells from this game but keep in mind FFVI did not categorize spells, it treated any form of magic as just that, "Magic.")

Cure 1
Cure 2
Cure 3
Antidote
Life
Life 2
Life 3
Regen
Remedy
Fire
Fire 2
Fire 3
Ice
Ice 2
Ice 3
Bolt
Bolt 2
Bolt 3
Poison
Drain
Bio
Break
Doom
Pearl
Flare
Demi
Quarter
X-Zone
Meteor
Ultima
Quake
W. Wind
Merton
Scan
Slow
Rasp
Mute
Safe
Sleep
Muddle
Haste
Stop
Berserk
Float
Imp
Reflect
Shell
Vanish
Haste 2
Slow 2
Osmose
Warp
Quick
Dispel

FF VII & VIII (I chose not to list the spells for these two games because they had a very unique way of applying the use of magic to the game through their materia and draw system. On top of that, these game did not really have a job system and, like FFVI, did not categorize magic)

FF IX

White Magic
Cure
Cura
Curaga
Life
Scan
Panacea
Stona
Shell
Protect
Silence
Mini
Reflect
Confuse
Berserk
Blind
Float
Dispel
Esuna
Full Life
Haste
Holy
Jewel
Might
Regen

Black Magic
Bio
Blizzard
Blizzara
Blizzaga
Break
Comet
Death
Demi
Doomsday
Drain
Fire
Fira
Firaga
Flare
Meteor
Osmose
Poison
Sleep
Slow
Stop
Thunder
Thundara
Thundaga
Water

FFX (Not really any type of job system here but were basically "inferred" by each character's look and style. Though the game did split its magic into categories via the sphere grid system).

White Magic
Cure
Cura
Curaga
Esuna
Scan
Nulblaze
Nulfrost
Nulshock
Nultide
Life
Full-Life
Haste
Hastega
Slow
Slowga
Shell
Protect
Reflect
Dispel
Regen
Holy
Auto-Life

Black Magic
Fire
Fira
Firaga
Thunder
Thundara
Thundaga
Water
Watera
Waterga
Blizzard
Blizzara
Blizzaga
Bio
Demi
Death
Drain
Osmose
Flare
Ultima

FF X-2

White Magic
Cure
Cura
Curaga
Regen
Esuna
Dispel
Life
Full-Life
Shell
Protect
Reflect
Full-Cure

Black Magic
Fire
Blizzard
Thunder
Water
Fira
Blizzara
Thundara
Watera
Firaga
Blizzaga
Thundaga
Waterga

Arcana
Drain
Demi
Confuse
Break
Bio
Doom
Death
Black Sky

Garment Grids
Auto-Life
Blind
Flare
Haste
Hastega
Holy
Osmose
Silence
Sleep
Ultima

FF XI

lol not on your life...

FF XII

White Magic
Cure
Cura
Curaga
Curaja
Renew
Raise
Arise
Esuna
Esunaga
Blindna
Vox
Poisona
Stona
Cleanse
Dispel
Dispelga
Regen
Holy

Black Magic
Fire
Thunder
Blizzard
Water
Aero
Fira
Fira
Thundara
Blizzara
Bio
Aeroga
Firaga
Thundaga
Blizzaga
Shock
Sourge
Flare
Ardor
Scathe

Time Magic
Haste
Hastega
Slow
Slowga
Immobilize
Disable
Stop
Reflect
Reflectga
Float
Break
Countdown
Balance
Bleed
Warp

Green Magic
Protect
Protectga
Shell
Shellga
Bravery
Faith
Blind
Blindga
Silence
Silencega
Sleep
Slepga
Poison
Toxify
Oil

Arcane Magic
Dark
Darkra
Darkga
Gravity
Graviga
Reverse
Berserk
Confuse
Decoy
Death
Vanish
Vanishga
Bubble
Drain
Syphon

FFXIII (Never truly classified its spells but they were only available under certain paradigms (FFXIII's version of s job/support job system). For this game I'm only going to list what were actually used as spells under each paradigm.)

Commando
Ruin
Ruinga

Ravager
Fire
Fira
Firaga
Blizzard
Blizzara
Blizzaga
Thunder
Thundara
Thundaga
Water
Watera
Waterga
Aero
Aerora
Aeroga

Synergist
Barfire
Barfrost
Barthunder
Barwater
Bravery
Bravera
Enfire
Enfrost
Enthunder
Enwater
Faith
Faithra
Haste
Protect
Protectra
Shell
Shellra
Veil

Saboteur
Curse
Cursega
Daze
Dazega
Deprotect
Deprotega
Deshell
Deshellga
Dispel
Fog
Fogga
Imperil
Imperilga
Jinx
Pain
Painga
Poison
Poisonga
Slow
Slowga

Medic
Cure
Cura
Curasa
Curaja
Esuna
Raise

Sources:

My own games
www.finalfantasy.wikia.com/
http://www.uffsite.net/

Also bear in mind that the names of certain spells change in their reiterations (ie Fire 3 becomes Firaga, Bolt 3 becomes Thundaga, etc.) I hope this helps and if I missed anything let me know and I'll add it in.

On a quick side note though, I think this topic has been derailed for the last few pages. The purpose was to simply discuss various ideas that could be used to improve or innovate the two jobs systems. I think people are focusing way too much on the elaboration of a disagreement or set of disagreements, and thus has become some sort of battleground for two differing view points. Just sayin.

Anyways, happy forum going.