Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Kirito]

So why can SE just rework the Fire and Ice lines so they can be useful like the Thunder spells? No one has answered that yet.

They could do what kh has done and make all lvl two fire/ice spells homing. They could make lvl three fire/ice spells nukes and lvl one fire/ice spells to just have quick cast time. Personally I want gravity and time spells but I'll be happy even if they don't add it in...

[KoujiGeki]

Or SE can just change Black Mage to Thunder Mage which is all it will ever amount to. Until the Make Master jobs like Sage which knows every spell.

[Kirito]

Or SE can just change Black Mage to Thunder Mage which is all it will ever amount to. Until the Make Master jobs like Sage which knows every spell.

Not going to happen. That will essentially make all DOM meaningless if you have one sage. No one would ever ask for a BLM or WHM. They would only ask for sage.

[fusional]

Mobs with high melee defense? Is that why you usually have Slash/Pierce/Blunt damage? They resist one of the three so you switch to a weapon with the attribute on it. Like Drg in XI that had a polearm that did blunt damage, not piercing.

first, they did away with damage types. second, how does a dragoon switch from pierce to another type of damage in a game where the armory system is based on equipping weapons to switch jobs?

why are you basing your arguments on how things worked in XI? this isn't XI, no matter how much you want it to be. so how about framing your arguments in the context of XIV, which is what this game is, rather than XI?

It's our problem and it's the fault of developers and white mages who want to DD. You don't need to. Wizards/Black Mages/ Sorcerers any Damage dealer has had multiple ways of damaging any target. It's been the role since when games with knights and wizards since they been made. So sorry that I want the traditional power house all-situtation caster.

and again you base your argument on how things work in XI. so let first let me reiterate: you're not talking about XI. you're talking about XIV. (and if you try to play the "but in other FF games" card, what about other FF games where any character can have elemental nukes, regardless of 'job'? seems exceptions occur in games other than XIV, and yet it's convenient for you to forget this)

second, i don't even *understand* your argument. there's no basis. how does a WHM being bored on coincounter or MM (because the paladin covers most all of his own healing) and throwing in some nukes to help speed things up *in any way* impact your ability as a black mage to damage coincounter? hint: it doesn't. so how is it a problem? and even if you have *two* WHM and they *both* get bored and start nuking, they're still not impacting your ability to damage coincounter and they're still not taking a raid slot from you simply by virtue of having elemental nukes. nobody goes "oh, well we could take a BLM but why not just take a WHM instead because stone and aero are just so OP!"

i mean, unless they're doing a whm moogle burn. but then what's your gripe? don't people BLM burn enough things? hint: yes, they do.

oh, and you know that thing about being an all-situation caster that you want in XIV? name a single endgame situation in XIV 1.0 where BLM wasn't a desirable DD. i'll seriously wait. and i'm gonna be waiting a really long time because really the only argument you'd have is Ifrit Extreme- but even that's not true. adding one BLM to the group speeds the fight up *so dramatically* that you exponentially decrease the number of bad situations the group can get themselves into simply by virtue of preventing the fight from lasting long enough for it to happen. the only reason PUGs didn't use it is because it basically forces you to solo heal it, and PUGs always wanted to be safe with 2 healers.

so again- what is your argument based on? XI? you're just upset that BLM doesn't have *all* of the elemental tools? and yet, it has some of the best single-target DPS (even on stuff that isn't really weak to magic! go figure) and some of the best aoe DPS (*except* on amalja)

Yes, black mages do, this is why we have the lowest hp and lowest defense. We are supposed to have the highest damage, and in this game the highest damage is determined by the resistance of the enemy. So if I don't have every spell for every weakness, then I can't do the highest damage.

wrong again. not only will you be hard pressed to ever find a dev statement calling BLM the king of dps... you still have the capacity to do the highest damage, even when an enemy isn't necessarily weak to a particular element. example: chimera. not weak to fire. not weak to thunder. and yet completely in spite of a ranged advantage, BLM is still preferred because it's easier for them to maintain a proper DPS rotation (ie: you don't have to time your directional combos to make sure you don't get ganked by breath or traps) and therefore safely top the damage meters. because in XIV 1.0 the secret to doing the highest damage was mostly in your ability/spell rotation.

if you could frame your arguments in the context of XIV itself maybe you'd have more people on your side, but you keep talking about XIV with your head in XI's clouds.

[KoujiGeki]

Not going to happen. That will essentially make all DOM meaningless if you have one sage. No one would ever ask for a BLM or WHM. They would only ask for sage.

I was being sarcastic, well except for the thunder mage part. But then everyone would be equal have 2 sages in a party 1 can use Blm spell the other focusing on healing.

[Jinrya-Geki]

first, they did away with damage types. second, how does a dragoon switch from pierce to another type of damage in a game where the armory system is based on equipping weapons to switch jobs?

why are you basing your arguments on how things worked in XI? this isn't XI, no matter how much you want it to be. so how about framing your arguments in the context of XIV, which is what this game is, rather than XI?



and again you base your argument on how things work in XI. so let first let me reiterate: you're not talking about XI. you're talking about XIV. (and if you try to play the "but in other FF games" card, what about other FF games where any character can have elemental nukes, regardless of 'job'? seems exceptions occur in games other than XIV, and yet it's convenient for you to forget this)

second, i don't even *understand* your argument. there's no basis. how does a WHM being bored on coincounter or MM (because the paladin covers most all of his own healing) and throwing in some nukes to help speed things up *in any way* impact your ability as a black mage to damage coincounter? hint: it doesn't. so how is it a problem? and even if you have *two* WHM and they *both* get bored and start nuking, they're still not impacting your ability to damage coincounter and they're still not taking a raid slot from you simply by virtue of having elemental nukes. nobody goes "oh, well we could take a BLM but why not just take a WHM instead because stone and aero are just so OP!"

i mean, unless they're doing a whm moogle burn. but then what's your gripe? don't people BLM burn enough things? hint: yes, they do.

oh, and you know that thing about being an all-situation caster that you want in XIV? name a single endgame situation in XIV 1.0 where BLM wasn't a desirable DD. i'll seriously wait. and i'm gonna be waiting a really long time because really the only argument you'd have is Ifrit Extreme- but even that's not true. adding one BLM to the group speeds the fight up *so dramatically* that you exponentially decrease the number of bad situations the group can get themselves into simply by virtue of preventing the fight from lasting long enough for it to happen. the only reason PUGs didn't use it is because it basically forces you to solo heal it, and PUGs always wanted to be safe with 2 healers.

so again- what is your argument based on? XI? you're just upset that BLM doesn't have *all* of the elemental tools? and yet, it has some of the best single-target DPS (even on stuff that isn't really weak to magic! go figure) and some of the best aoe DPS (*except* on amalja)



wrong again. not only will you be hard pressed to ever find a dev statement calling BLM the king of dps... you still have the capacity to do the highest damage, even when an enemy isn't necessarily weak to a particular element. example: chimera. not weak to fire. not weak to thunder. and yet completely in spite of a ranged advantage, BLM is still preferred because it's easier for them to maintain a proper DPS rotation (ie: you don't have to time your directional combos to make sure you don't get ganked by breath or traps) and therefore safely top the damage meters. because in XIV 1.0 the secret to doing the highest damage was mostly in your ability/spell rotation.

if you could frame your arguments in the context of XIV itself maybe you'd have more people on your side, but you keep talking about XIV with your head in XI's clouds.

Weapons had stats on them saying 10 blunt, 80 slash, and 10 pierce. You could switch to the ones that have a higher damage type over the other. This was in FFXIV 1.0, not just XI.

And for the power-house caster comment that is about every single game ever made where you have the choice of being some kind of wizard class, not specifically black mage from FFXI.

Name one situation where Black Mage wasn't an all desired job? That is so redicoulously easy, that I already stated it. Miser, monks do so much damage to it that I couldn't really compare. The most you really can do in the miser fight is sleep slugs. There is your one fight you asked for. Need another?

The chimera is netural damage in terms of resistance, every mob needs to be like that if we are gonna be limited to one spell type. If the spells stay exactly the same, and chimera got lightning resistance our overall damage would plummet badly. Fire spells are not good enough.

[KoujiGeki]

Weapons had stats on them saying 10 blunt, 80 slash, and 10 pierce. You could switch to the ones that have a higher damage type over the other. This was in FFXIV 1.0, not just XI.

And for the power-house caster comment that is about every single game ever made where you have the choice of being some kind of wizard class, not specifically black mage from FFXI.

Name one situation where Black Mage wasn't an all desired job? That is so redicoulously easy, that I already stated it. Miser, monks do so much damage to it that I couldn't really compare. The most you really can do in the miser fight is sleep slugs. There is your one fight you asked for. Need another?

or Princess in CC, Ring of Talons is far better dmg than Flare.

[fusional]

or Princess in CC, Ring of Talons is far better dmg than Flare.

i don't get it. is flare all you have? you understand DRG can't spam RoT but BLM *can* spam the fire line, right? what good does it do to compare direct damage between two abilities in one situation when you use more than those two abilities?

do you people not understand that dps comes from your rotation and your actions per minute?

do you also not understand that as BLM you can just stand in the back headbutting your fire spells while dragoon actually has to run around executing difficult position-based combos? that if the mob moves it doesn't impact your spellcasting one bit (unless they outrange you), yet it completely destroys the melee's rotation?

furthermore, does that mean BLM is *undesirable*? no. once again, most groups *preferred* using BLM for princess simply because it was easier to stand back and spam aoe.

while in the end, yes, a geared and well-played dragoon had a much higher DPS ceiling on princess (i believe my personal best was 290 dps on all targets, 110 on princess specifically), most people either couldn't pull it off or didn't want to bother switching only to switch *back* to blm for the rest of the dungeon. and this in no way detracts from how strong BLM was on over 90% of content in 1.0. so i really don't understand where you guys get off feeling so slighted.

Weapons had stats on them saying 10 blunt, 80 slash, and 10 pierce. You could switch to the ones that have a higher damage type over the other. This was in FFXIV 1.0, not just XI.

and i already said they did away with damage types. so without weapon damage types, what are melee supposed to do when a mob has high melee defense? i asked the question for a reason and you seem to keep skirting it, so i'll just explain where i was going.

there wasn't anything in XIV that was *just* strong to magic damage. but you did have stuff that was strong to wind, fire, etc. so what do you do on stuff that's strong to fire? you use ice and thunder. what about stuff that's strong to thunder? you use fire and ice. (oh and earlier you said freeze is useless before- wrong. not only is the damage-to-MP ratio quite favorable in an optimal dps rotation, meaning you want to have it on cooldown always... but if you're doing a proper rotation you're gonna need that enmity down as well)

see, BLM has the option to switch to different damage types. not all damage types, no, but melee are just plain stuck with melee and have no other options. and even if they *had* different damage types, there *are* mobs in XIV which are just plain generically strong to melee. like chimera. so every melee but MNK is hosed there, as MNK was the only melee class with a magic damage option.

And for the power-house caster comment that is about every single game ever made where you have the choice of being some kind of wizard class, not specifically black mage from FFXI.

still rendered irrelevant by virtue of the -fact- that BLM is a DPS powerhouse in XIV as well

Name one situation where Black Mage wasn't an all desired job? That is so redicoulously easy, that I already stated it. Miser, monks do so much damage to it that I couldn't really compare. The most you really can do in the miser fight is sleep slugs. There is your one fight you asked for. Need another?

is this a serious response? BLM burn became the most common way to kill miser after kaeko and seiken posted parses of ~1:50 kills using BLM onry, and our own BLMs could easily top out at 170+ dps even in a MNK burn group (this is significant because in a MNK burn group the bard will give monks 2hr paeon before engaging mistress then give ballad to BLM. in BLM burn group the bard will just give 2hr ballad to everyone, for the BLMs. it makes a difference in your DPS ceiling either way for certain)

furthermore, why shouldn't monk have a high dps ceiling on a fight which requires *far and away* a rotation with a MUCH higher skill ceiling to execute? and in the end really without paeon monks can't really compete. but with it, and with the proper rotation, they have the capacity to pull ahead of BLM.

but BLM can faceroll to higher DPS than monk on that fight assuming average monks, as long as you're doing a proper rotation. not doing a proper rotation doesn't mean BLM is underpowered or monks have some insane advantage over you. it just means you're not doing a proper rotation, and need to increase your actions per minute.

considering my LS invented ~2min mistress kills and we min-max to the extreme, when i say BLM is not only competitive but preferable to most because it's flat out easier to play... you just might have to take my word for it. if our creation of the ~2min mistress kill model isn't enough for you, maybe at least consider that we ran AV like 700 times, and tried absolutely everything.

or, you know. there's also this. (though kaeko's info about our monks is outdated- our top monk dps is 177 for MM. our top BLM dps is 173)

tl;dr yes give me another example because you're woefully incorrect here

[Firon]

The spell skill set wont be the same in 2.0 has alrdy been stated, also we wont be limited to 15/20 skills anymore so they can add single target spells for every element for blm and 1 Aoe option as well. People need to stop acting like 2.0 is gonna be the same as 1.0 they are not revising the battle system for the 100th time for no reason.

[Jinrya-Geki]

I am wrong then about the damage types then, but don't all melees also have combos that ingore defense from certain positions?

I mentioned before that when I talk about fire/ice spells I refer to Fire/Fira/Firaga and Blizzard/Blizzara. They are the useless spells, along with flare. Freeze is really only good for it's enmity drop, but it's damage is great. How many times do I have to repeat myself on this?

Do you spam blizzard/blizzara on Gardua? Do you spam only fire spells on Miser? Do a parse on their weaknesses, i bet they won't be nearly as good as using Thunder combo. And when you run into a mob that has lightning resistance what would you do, you would still use a black mage when it's not optimal? Did you have the black mage use lightning on the basilisk in the in the drg af fight while the paladin/warrior kited the drg boss. Or spam thunder on the rock golem in skirmish?

Blm is a situational powerhouse. I want it to be more than that. I want to be able to go to every situation as a black mage, but until 2.0 comes we won't truly know what lies in store for end-game black mage.

Let's say the spells stay exactly the same right now. I will take your word on your miser fight, if you take my word on this.

If the spells work exactly the same, and ramuh or titan come out, are you really gonna bring a black mage to that fight, if their main way of dpsing is negated?