Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Alhanelem]

If WHM can't lv on it's own, play as CNJ instead

WHM is an extension of CNJ. Beyond subbing abilities from a greater range of classes, there is no difference between playing as WHM and playing as CNJ from a solo standpoint. Cleric Stance isn't even a WHM ability, it's a CNJ ability.

Jobs have access to all the abilities of the class they branch from. Therefore, whether or not you have WHM set, you have all the spells of CNJ. This isn't going to change, so you'd better start accepting it soon. Like I said before, You don't make the rules, and there is no reason why WHM can't have any offensive magic for its own protection and soloing ability. As long as it's not superior to another job's magic, it won't be taking over anyone else's role.

In most games the "healer" class has at least some limited ability to defend itself. There is not one good reason to take this away from WHM. The only thing that was really being disputed in the first place is why WHM gets earth/wind/water instead of just astral or "holy" magic. That is an argument I can understand, though I'm not really bothered by it.

The underlying issue, though, is that people are dissatisfied with BLM.

This is news to me? People used BLM all the time on my server... I was very satisfied with it as being fun to play and also useful/wanted. WHM/CNJ haivng damaging spells has nothing to do with people's satisfaction level of BLM and it's really an entirely different topic.

It baffles me why people are insisting that WHM should "lose" the capabilities it has from CNJ, when the Job isn't supposed to totally transform a class into something else, but rather strengthen specific aspects of the class. If you want to maximize healing, then just play normally. If you need to pull out your damage spells, you use cleric stance. Either way, you're not going to be more powerful than a BLM- but you have a means of defending yourself in PvP and a means of soloing in PvE. Transforming WHM into 100% nothing but cures and buffs would make the job markedly more dull, especially while leveling up- People will only play the job out of necessity and not because it's fun.

In FF1, WHM eradicated undead. In FFXI, WHM damage spells went from horrendus against regular enemies to decent against undead (and cures could also be used as damage against undead, though this was absent in FFXIV). There is plenty of precedent for WHM to have damaging spells. Holy magic is as much about smiting evil as it is about healing wounds.

Basically, people in this thread are trying to make WHM/CNJ suck more by restricting its capabiltiies. WHM was never in any danger of taking over anyone else's role so any line of discussion suggesting this to be the case is ridiculous.

[Shougun]

WHM doesn't have DD spells. CNJ does. WHM gets them by extension. If this was the argument, I'd be okay with it:


Or better yet, make the WHM soul stone have the opposite effect of Cleric Stance, i.e. WHMs will still have stone and aero, but they'll suck.

The underlying issue, though, is that people are dissatisfied with BLM. And there are a plethora of ways SE could overcome that, without taking ANYTHING from CNJ/WHM. But the real problem is, the OP didn't call this topic "How to make BLM a more balanced DD." It's "Removing elemental nukes from WHM"

Yeah you are right in that CNJ gets the DD spells but since there is no difference between CNJ DD and WHM DD it wouldnt matter. Although your next point solves exactly that issue :P so ok I agree then lol

Why is it a problem that CNJ/WHM can out damage a BLM on 3 mobs in the game then?
a GLD/PLD could out damage a BLM if mob isn't weak vs any of BLM spells; Even more so if it's resistant to all spells.

MNK, DRG etc arn't welcome in many parties, cause everyone wanna stack BLM, so it would be about time, there was a fight where BLM is left out

Yeah currently 3 mobs but further in my post I said that would be a big problem if those mobs include EG contents (where balance matters most). BLM can be left out if SE is trying to design content where each class is left out of something (I dont that is there intention though).

But WHM shouldnt be replacing BLM as DD, WHM is a healer with nice damage - and shouldnt considered EG as a healer and epic damage (stone weak bosses).

And that was all my point was. I dont care WHM can DD just so long as they dont become best at two things while all other classes are only best at one thing (which is bad balance in relation, imo).

Mychael has suggested another solution

[Alhanelem]

Yeah currently 3 mobs but further in my post I said that would be a big problem if those mobs include EG contents (where balance matters most). BLM can be left out if SE is trying to design content where each class is left out of something (I dont that is there intention though).

There is absolutely NO PROBLEM with different jobs shining against different mobs, whether they are endgame mobs or not. I would be totally fine with a fight that you need WHMs to kill it, as long as there was also a fight where you need BLMs to kill it instead. If there weren't different mobs that different jobs were more useful on, there wouldn't be any reason to have a bunch of different jobs in the first place.

[Shougun]

There is absolutely NO PROBLEM with different jobs shining against different mobs, whether they are endgame mobs or not. I would be totally fine with a fight that you need WHMs to kill it, as long as there was also a fight where you need BLMs to kill it instead. If there weren't different mobs that different jobs were more useful on, there wouldn't be any reason to have a bunch of different jobs in the first place.

We are really going to have to eternally disagree on that.

I believe in out of the box thinking but then can imagine a box around that new idea, and no matter allowing white mage to both be main DD and main healer is a bad idea for balance. Unless like I said (throughout this thread in random places lol) its some gimmick boss where raise just owns his face off and you do 999999 damage in 2 spells.

[Laume]

*sits backs, eats popcorn and watches the flame war*

My 2 cents. As long as whm AND cnj have some way to get decent amount of exp by themselves and without a party. I'm happy. I personally think they should just give thm/blm all the original absorb, fear, etc, spells back from the initial release, keep cnj/whm the same and call it good. Whm's can damage. Blm/thm's can do things and considerably more dmg that cnj/whm's can't. Whm's don't get gimped. Everyone's happy.

(those that don't remember the spells can refer to this page. http://ffxiv.zam.com/wiki/Thaumaturge_(FFXIV) . Mass fear? <Yes, Please>)

[Alhanelem]

I believe in out of the box thinking but then can imagine a box around that new idea, and no matter allowing white mage to both be main DD and main healer is a bad idea for balance.

This is an opinion and not a fact. It isn't and doesn't have to be "bad for balance" for CNJ/WHM to have damaging spells. This doesn't mean that nuking is its primary role. You're not the out-of-the-box thinker you claim to be if you're so opposed to this.

Heals and damage are in fact rarely completely isolated from each other. Very few games these days give the "healer" nothing to attack with- it simply isn't commonly used in endgame content except in special situations. These spells are however necessary for solo and PvP balance- quite contrary to your statement of it being bad for balance.

WHM/CNJ having a handful of situationally beneficial damage spells does not mean that th ey aren't going to be healers more often than not, nor does it mean dethroning some other job as the best source of damage.

My 2 cents. As long as whm AND cnj have some way to get decent amount of exp by themselves and without a party.

At least someone understands the primary reason those spells and abilities exist.

[Shougun]

This is an opinion and not a fact. It isn't and doesn't have to be "bad for balance" for CNJ/WHM to have damaging spells. This doesn't mean that nuking is its primary role. You're not the out-of-the-box thinker you claim to be if you're so opposed to this.

Heals and damage are in fact rarely completely isolated from each other. Very few games these days give the "healer" nothing to attack with- it simply isn't commonly used in endgame content except in special situations. These spells are however necessary for solo and PvP balance- quite contrary to your statement of it being bad for balance.

WHM/CNJ having a handful of situationally beneficial damage spells does not mean that th ey aren't going to be healers more often than not, nor does it mean dethroning some other job as the best source of damage.

I said main DD. Meaning they are both main DD and main healer at the same time. In WoW Priest can be a great healer and they can be a great DD - but they are forced to choose by talents (they then become ok at the other thing).

I dont care if WHM can DD, but they cant be MAIN DD for simple balance reasons. Else you're just going to mass stack WHM's 1pld 7WHM lets do this.

No thats a bad idea.

[Alhanelem]

I said main DD. Meaning they are both main DD and main healer at the same time. In WoW Priest can be a great healer and they can be a great DD - but they are forced to choose by talents (they then become ok at the other thing).

Preist was generally not the best at either because you always had access to some capability of both. Either way, Either way, most games do view the priest/bishop/healer/etc class just as much a holy warrior as they view it a healer. I think multiple play styles for any given class should be welcomed, providing that players understand sometimes you need one style or the other.

Not me or anyone here is proposing to make WHM/CNJ a main DD- But the damage spells have a reason to exist for situational benefit- mainly for solo play and PvP as I described before- but there can be some enemies that are particularly vulnerable to their magic (but even in these cases, a WHM or CNJ would at best match other damage classes, making them an option rather than the defacto solution). WHM has had damaging spells since the first Final Fantasy and there is no reason to reverse this now.

[Shougun]

Preist was generally not the best at either because you always had access to some capability of both. Either way, Either way, most games do view the priest/bishop/healer/etc class just as much a holy warrior as they view it a healer. I think multiple play styles for any given class should be welcomed, providing that players understand sometimes you need one style or the other.

Not me or anyone here is proposing to make WHM/CNJ a main DD- But the damage spells have a reason to exist for situational benefit- mainly for solo play and PvP as I described before- but there can be some enemies that are particularly vulnerable to their magic (but even in these cases, a WHM or CNJ would at best match other damage classes, making them an option rather than the defacto solution). WHM has had damaging spells since the first Final Fantasy and there is no reason to reverse this now.

I think we confused each other then. Because I was saying or at least trying to say main DD.

I agree that WHM should be able to run about solo (and should maintain DD spells), FFXI white mage solo what a nightmare... lol Oh look an easy prey.. splat dead, delevel.. Mot..$!@#$!@ !@#$...

Ok "White Mage LFG!!"

[Alhanelem]

I think we confused each other then. Because I was saying or at least trying to say main DD.

I agree that WHM should be able to run about solo (and should maintain DD spells), FFXI white mage solo what a nightmare... lol Oh look an easy prey.. splat dead, delevel.. Mot..$!@#$!@ !@#$...

Ok "White Mage LFG!!"

No, I'm not looking for WHM to be a "main DD-" but the damage magic should situationally useful (e.g. better than the banish spells were in FFXI) from time to time- It is not a bad idea for the WHM to have something else they can cast when nobody is in need of healing- if the WHM has a lot of downtime, then they are being underutilized and it may be wise to throw in a few damage spells so that they aren't sitting on their arse twiddling their thumbs when they have a surplus of MP. The spells are not there to be cast exclusively and doing so should not yield better results than a BLM for instance. They are there for situational benefit.