Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Shougun]

PS: @ Shougun It might not have been optimal, but I totally could kill toads around Treespeak on my BLM/THM too...so really what's your point? A CNJ/WHM does it a little more efficiently and you get all upset? Wow, they can cream a couple mobs in one less cast than you....by the 12 we must fix that!.

I dont get the first part, BLM rape toads because they are weak to lightning. And yes I would be upset if CNJ/WHM is a better DD on -any- content besides gimick content like bosses dying to raise (which I think would be funny XD).

You cant have the best healer and the best DD packed into one class. If no boss is ever weak to stone then I guess it doesnt really matter for the BLM - because the BLM has better combo DD spells. But if any boss is weak to stone then WHM will certainly out DD BLM - even if the boss has mechanics for BLM to work in its still not ok.

[Kinseykinz]

I dont get the first part, BLM rape toads because they are weak to lightning. And yes I would be upset if CNJ/WHM is a better DD on -any- content besides gimick content like bosses dying to raise (which I think would be funny XD).

Sorry it's late and I used the wrong mob as an example...I just remembered you said toad, my bad. I was trying to point out that there are general world mobs that yes, are weak to stone or air, but you can still effectively kill them as THM/BLM.

And again, the stone weakness thing...very very situational. And if SE ever designed a battle boss that was 'stone' or 'air' weak, I am positive that Monk would be the >DD not White Mage. White Mage would still be healing but would of course toss out the occasional appropriate nuke (just like they do now). It would be SE's job to make sure however, that Black Mages were still viable in the battle. That is on them not me...but I have faith in them being able to develop battle content that even if it wasn't Black Mage optimal, it would be Black Mage doable. So far, ALL endgame content could effectively use Black Mage.

[Shougun]

Sorry it's late and I used the wrong mob as an example...I just remembered you said toad, my bad. I was trying to point out that there are general world mobs that yes, are weak to stone or air, but you can still effectively kill them as THM/BLM.

And again, the stone weakness thing...very very situational. And if SE ever designed a battle boss that was 'stone' or 'air' weak, I am positive that 1. Monk would be the >DD not White Mage. White Mage would still be healing but would of course toss out the occasional appropriate nuke (just like they do now). It would be SE's job to make sure however, that Black Mages were still viable in the battle. That is on them not me...but I have faith in them being able to develop battle content that even if it wasn't Black Mage optimal, it would be Black Mage doable. So far, ALL endgame content could effectively use Black Mage.

Honestly I dont care if the elemental wheel is dvided so long as healer doesnt get mistaken as main DD. And yeah monk would probably go ape shit lol.

If exactly as you say BLM are still desired for the fight because of some weird mechanic like machines being charged by BLM thunder and then fires high damage, or massive fire spam. I could live with it, but it needs to be designed in there.

I believe BLM still needs a non elemental nuke for the moments when his elements are being resisted, but that's all in due time I guess. Specially with how the class/job stuff is structured atm and his fire/ice elements being both aoe. I'm hoping sooner then later though.

In WoW priests can go DD but they need different gear and a whole talent tree difference that can't be changed except for in town. So it was a dedicated choice to go DD, not a willy nilly switch (though usually WHM isnt as good as a DD as shadow priest, only on stone weak monsters - which is why I said I dont want to see WHM willy nilly into top DD on stone weak bosses).

[Kinseykinz]

I believe BLM still needs a non elemental nuke for the moments when his elements are being resisted, but thats all in due time I guess. Specially with out the class/job stuff is structured atm. I'm hoping sooner then later though.

And Black Mages should, and probably will, get this post level 50. We're only mid-level at the moment, which is why blm feels a bit 'lack luster' to some. They want to rain holy terror down from the skies, but if they had that ability mid-level, what the heck could SE give them at true 'end level' cap that wouldn't just blow the game balance. I'd love Black mage getting and 'umbral spike' type of spell that is basically a cheap, low damage dart they could have. Maybe if combo'd with another umbral dd spell, it could bio or something. But this is probably a 'post' level 50 addition.

Also, while this is speculation, I do believe that the 'Ancient Magics'...ALL of them, will belong to Black Mage. (I'd explain my logic behind this but it's not really that important) Basically, I just don't see SE giving White Mage Quake, Flood or Tornado...but instead, bigger and better party buffs and heals, maybe 1-2 more damage dealing LIGHT-based spells...these will further separate it from it's base class of CNJ and def. from Black Mage. At any rate, even though I believe CNJ/WHM should keep their current Stone/Aero tiers of spells, I think it also is best if the Ancient Magics are Black Mage, and I think it is easy to create lore and story that support this...

Basically, Black Mages need to wait a bit longer, but I'm positive you will get a better mix of what you want without compromising CNJ WHM. This is why I'm in camp 'Don't touch my CNJ/WHM bro'

[Alhanelem]

Thats it.. all you're in favor of is WHM staying a multi-role class where as the job systems purpose was to give a class ONE role in the party.

No, that's not what I'm in favor of. I'm in favor of all jobs having basic needs fufilled such that all classes are fully playable without complete dependence on another. If WHM can only heal, then it can't level on its own, where as *all* other jobs can. That puts CNJ/WHM at a serious disadvantage. It needs attacking ability- Not the best attacking ability, mind you- in order to be viable for all content- from solo to party to raid to PvP. If WHM has no offensive spells, then it is literally the only class that absolutely cannot level up solo. Nobody here is suggesting that damage magic be the centerpiece of WHM- however, they are necessary for good game design and balance, especially (but not solely because of) in a game that has any PvP- no matter how major or minor the PvP content is.

I explained to you already how healers don't always just heal. Many games have had them do more, and all without ruining game balance. You're just shouting out arbitrary desires with no real reason based in good gameplay mechanics.

The strange thing here is you want to nerf WHM's flexibility yet increase BLM's flexibility. This is hypocrisy- fighting to make WHM more helpless and make BLM more versatile. You're missing the point. The primary purpose of Cleric Stance was not giving the job a new role in a party- It is there for a situational benefits- It is not there as a role change button.

If you remove CNJ/WHM's attack capability, then the character creation UI needs a warning label that appears if you select CNJ stating "Warning: this class cannot be used for solo play Be sure to find an adventuring companion immediately if you wish to start as this class."

[Radacci]

I'm saying because of the wheel and because it is divided between CNJ and THM, that CNJ can out damage THM on stone weak monsters. I've been a fully geared BLM (double melds and higher) out damaged on stone weak monsters by a healing geared white mage. Of course there are like 3 stone weak monsters in the whole game.

What I was saying is if there are bosses weak to stone, they can usurp a BLM. If you need to DD the boss just bring WHM's no point to bring a BLM because if things go to shit you can heal and raise and stoneskin forever.

So I dont want that to happen. So either no boss should ever be weak to stone, or there needs to be very interesting mechanics in place for each stone weak boss like I exampled cannons on the battlefield charged by BLM's thunder - that then deal high non elemental damage. (Kinsey example is that a bunch of side monsters the BLM needs to destroy in great swathes, weak to fire would work nicely there lol)

CNJ/WHM should never lose its DD - I just dont want it to become a main DD.

Why is it a problem that CNJ/WHM can out damage a BLM on 3 mobs in the game then?
a GLD/PLD could out damage a BLM if mob isn't weak vs any of BLM spells; Even more so if it's resistant to all spells.

MNK, DRG etc arn't welcome in many parties, cause everyone wanna stack BLM, so it would be about time, there was a fight where BLM is left out

And Black Mages should, and probably will, get this post level 50. We're only mid-level at the moment, which is why blm feels a bit 'lack luster' to some. They want to rain holy terror down from the skies, but if they had that ability mid-level, what the heck could SE give them at true 'end level' cap that wouldn't just blow the game balance. I'd love Black mage getting and 'umbral spike' type of spell that is basically a cheap, low damage dart they could have. Maybe if combo'd with another umbral dd spell, it could bio or something. But this is probably a 'post' level 50 addition.

Also, while this is speculation, I do believe that the 'Ancient Magics'...ALL of them, will belong to Black Mage. (I'd explain my logic behind this but it's not really that important) Basically, I just don't see SE giving White Mage Quake, Flood or Tornado...but instead, bigger and better party buffs and heals, maybe 1-2 more damage dealing LIGHT-based spells...these will further separate it from it's base class of CNJ and def. from Black Mage. At any rate, even though I believe CNJ/WHM should keep their current Stone/Aero tiers of spells, I think it also is best if the Ancient Magics are Black Mage, and I think it is easy to create lore and story that support this...

Basically, Black Mages need to wait a bit longer, but I'm positive you will get a better mix of what you want without compromising CNJ WHM. This is why I'm in camp 'Don't touch my CNJ/WHM bro'

we shouldn't have to wait for god (Yoshi) knows how long, for cap increase, for Jobs to blossom.
I think BLM should be fully Umbral, and CNJ fully elemental.
THM could become BLM burst damage, necro dot/debuff. CNJ= Geomancer or WHM
GEO would get Ancient Element spells, and WHM would get heal/buff spells. BLM ancient Umbral spells. Elemental spells could be CNJ specific, and WHM can't use them.

No, that's not what I'm in favor of. I'm in favor of all jobs having basic needs fufilled such that all classes are fully playable without complete dependence on another. If WHM can only heal, then it can't level on its own, where as *all* other jobs can. That puts CNJ/WHM at a serious disadvantage. It needs attacking ability- Not the best attacking ability, mind you- in order to be viable for all content- from solo to party to raid to PvP. If WHM has no offensive spells, then it is literally the only class that absolutely cannot level up solo. Nobody here is suggesting that damage magic be the centerpiece of WHM- however, they are necessary for good game design and balance, especially (but not solely because of) in a game that has any PvP- no matter how major or minor the PvP content is.

I explained to you already how healers don't always just heal. Many games have had them do more, and all without ruining game balance. You're just shouting out arbitrary desires with no real reason based in good gameplay mechanics.

The strange thing here is you want to nerf WHM's flexibility yet increase BLM's flexibility. This is hypocrisy- fighting to make WHM more helpless and make BLM more versatile. You're missing the point. The primary purpose of Cleric Stance was not giving the job a new role in a party- It is there for a situational benefits- It is not there as a role change button.

If you remove CNJ/WHM's attack capability, then the character creation UI needs a warning label that appears if you select CNJ stating "Warning: this class cannot be used for solo play Be sure to find an adventuring companion immediately if you wish to start as this class."

If WHM can't lv on it's own, play as CNJ instead Classes were meant to be solo, Job party.
If you're in party to heal, you're WHM, if you're in party to damage, go CNJ or THM/BLM; That's how i'd wanna see it. You forfeit the class' ability to cross class, to become specialized in a job. If WHM could use strong astral spells, it would out damage BLM in whatever that's weak vs astral, which would still annoy people, that want BLM to out damage WHM in everything. WHM can already heal and buff, why should it have atk spells too? BLM can DD, but not heal, so that's unfair; but that's how Job system works.
WHM is the only heal-centric class also, and you could say Bard wouldn't be able to solo either. So if WHM/BRD can't solo, then play CNJ/ARC? I wouldn't want jobs to make classes Obsolete anyways.

FFXIV offers the ability to be any class/job on one char, so you can effectively pick whatever role you want, in any situation; so there's no purpose for WHM to be multi functional; having DD, heals, buffs, while BLM is only DD.
The problem isn't CNJ having elemental/attack spells, the problem is WHM having them. They could introduce some Astral Mage to get such skill set instead