Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Altena]

On a quick side note though, I think this topic has been derailed for the last few pages. The purpose was to simply discuss various ideas that could be used to improve or innovate the two jobs systems. I think people are focusing way too much on the elaboration of a disagreement or set of disagreements, and thus has become some sort of battleground for two differing view points. Just sayin.

Anyways, happy forum going.

Thank you for pulling things back to the point of this thread and stating things I have failed to find the words to say.

[Asael]

Thank you for pulling things back to the point of this thread and stating things I have failed to find the words to say.

Anytime ^^

[Bowen]

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't Aero and Stone have side effects that are very beneficial to WHM? Like, I remember one has a dispel effect, while the other has a DoT. They definitely do have a purpose if this is the case. That, and I think that WHM should have some nukes, so that they can DD when they don't need to heal.

Then again, I've never really used WHM (I only got to level BLM/THM to max before the end came. ): ) so maybe I am stupid and should leave.

[junebug341]

they should make whm be able to implode like ninja back in ffxi instead of trying to HOLY FTW!

[Mychael]

That is actually wrong.
Quake was a BLM spell in the following FF's:
-FF1
-FF3
-FF4
-FF6
-FF11
(I didn't mention 7&8 due to their spell systems, however see the trend?)

FF1: Quake attempts to instantly kill an enemy by swallowing them into the ground.
It is not an earth elemental spell.

FF3: Quake is a Level 7 Black Magic spell that causes major Earth-elemental damage. Only the Jobs Black Mage, Magus, Sage, and Onion Knight can use this spell. It can be bought in Doga's Village and in the Invincible.
It is not exclusive to BLM, though it is black magic in FF3.

FF4: In this version it is a non-elemental spell that damages all non-flying enemies and ignores Reflect.
Non-elemental

FF6,FF7, FF8--Quake is an earth elemental spell, but is not really attributed to a "class."

FF11: The only game where Black Mage exclusively receives Quake as an earth elemental spell.

FF13: Is not a spell, but a technique (that does deal earth elemental damage) learned by pretty much every character, in different roles of the crystarium.

FF Tactics: Quake is Planar Magic.

Crystal Chronicles RoF: Quake = piling Fire, Thunder, Cure, and Clear. It inflicts stun on the enemy

Crystal Chronicles EoT: A pillar of rock erupts from beneath the enemy, sending it flying into the air and inflicting a stun effect after landing.

See the trend?

Googling and reading FF wiki might not be the best way to argue.

If 1 class had all the elements, the elemental affinity would be a more viable mechanic, along with some slight spell adjustments, without overhauling a functional job, to make a boring job more fun and exciting.

If one class had all elements, then either that class would be grossly overpowered (having an advantage against almost any mob) or the bonus from using the "correct" element would have to be so minimal that it barely existed (as you would ALWAYS be using the mob's weakness).

CNJ is always going to have the "healer" tag associated with it, despite its ability to deal damage.

This is an issue in and of itself. There will almost definitely be a DD job that comes out of conjurer at some point. The game isn't even launched yet. The job system is barely developed.

This basically means that the elements associated with this class are inevitably going to be gimped, as you can't have 2 equally powerful damage spellcasters, but 1 of which can also heal.. Thus it reduces the chance of elemental affinity being viable.

I don't follow. CNJ is a decent attacker and decent healer. WHM is a great healer and decent attacker. In both cases, DDing takes away from ability to cure, and vice-versa--you can't deal decent damage WHILE keeping a party alive in difficult content. THM is a great attacker. Both are unique, and neither is making the other useless.

Divine spells are iconic to WHM.

Divine spells are iconic to WHM, but one could argue the same for earth, air, and water spells

Once again, the CNJ and THM lore is already butchered because of the changes in early 1.0. I don't see "stripping CNJ of their elemental affinity" when there is little to no affinity in the version we know. Removing them from the skillset would help create one. Simplifying the elementals to one class would help improve the ability to take advantage of affinity and actually make it a game mechanic

The THM lore that we know from 1.0 is butchered; I wasn't in alpha, but I believe that will change for 2.0. I'll try to find the dev post I'm thinking of.

CNJ lore, however, never was truly butchered. Though I argued that it was at one point, the fact is we retained control of the three elements that really appeared in the Shroud (and if you're at all familiar with the lore, you'll understand why those would be the three that matter).

No, I am trying to improve the mechanic of a boring job, by slightly modifying another with a few name changes and animations . . At the moment, I only play BLM when I absolutely *have* to. I am sure a lot of people are in that boat, because it is currently (as we know) a fairly simplistic/boring job. I don't care if it is "my ideal and perfect BLM", I just care for playing a job that is both fun and engaging. Currently it is not.

Out of context, the bulk of this segment could describe ANY job. I think you vastly overestimate how "fun" it would be to have to stalk out the wiki page of EVERY mob you encounter to determine its weakness so you could optimize your damage.

Also, you sound tense. I think you need a massage.

No one else took you up on this offer, but... how much do you charge for a half hour? ;D

[Shougun]

But they already have to do that (make element weakness minimal for bosses at least).

I will not (ever) be ok if WHM is the main DD for a stone or aero weak boss (and a WHM main DD holy boss should be a gimick boss imo) - BLM should be able to do more damage then a healer. If WHM can be main DD then BLM should be able to be main healer. Its why I keep supporting the zombie spell and holy spells (which are kind of elemental ambivalent) - something that WHM can turn into a higher dps by using zombie debuffs (that take time meaning overall lower, even though the numbers would look nice). Although you can just go without the zombie debuff and give an elemental ambivalent damage source like holy (even if you fight a monster with holy resistance WHM could still cure).


And I know from smaller monsters that are weak to stone that WHM will usually out damage a BLM (while the WHM wasn't DPS geared the BLM was).

[Mychael]

But they already have to do that (make element weakness minimal for bosses at least).

I will not (ever) be ok if WHM is the main DD for a stone or aero weak boss (and a WHM main DD holy boss should be a gimick boss imo) - BLM should be able to do more damage then a healer. If WHM can be main DD then BLM should be able to be main healer. Its why I keep supporting the zombie spell and holy spells (which are kind of elemental ambivalent) - something that WHM can turn into a higher dps by using zombie debuffs (that take time meaning overall lower, even though the numbers would look nice). Although you can just go without the zombie debuff and give an elemental ambivalent damage source like holy (even if you fight a monster with holy resistance WHM could still cure).

You're correct. BLM is broken. Forgive me if ever I denied that. However, looking back in FF history, what BLM is missing is NOT stone, water, and air elemental spells. BLMs traditionally have dark-based spells and non-elemental damage spells, either of which would more-than-satisfy your needs.

And I know from smaller monsters that are weak to stone that WHM will usually out damage a BLM (while the WHM wasn't DPS geared the BLM was).

While you may be right, I can't think of any instance where a BLM didn't pull his/her own weight, even if CNJ/WHM could out-damage them.

[Shougun]

You're correct. BLM is broken. Forgive me if ever I denied that. However, looking back in FF history, what BLM is missing is NOT stone, water, and air elemental spells. BLMs traditionally have dark-based spells and non-elemental damage spells, either of which would more-than-satisfy your problems.


While you may be right, I can't think of any instance where a BLM didn't pull his/her own weight, even if CNJ/WHM could out-damage them.

Hey... Dark spells !


I think you could find some solutions in that, for those bosses strong to BLM elements BLM just turns to his dark abilities.

+1 cause I forgot about dark spells lol

Edit: to the second part WHM should -never- out damage BLM except on say gimick bosses where raise kills them almost instantly (like in classic FF games)

WHM is a great healer and shouldnt also get to be a greater DD - that is very unbalanced.

[Bowen]

This is an issue in and of itself. There will almost definitely be a DD job that comes out of conjurer at some point. The game isn't even launched yet. The job system is barely developed.

I don't follow. CNJ is a decent attacker and decent healer. WHM is a great healer and decent attacker. In both cases, DDing takes away from ability to cure, and vice-versa--you can't deal decent damage WHILE keeping a party alive in difficult content. THM is a great attacker. Both are unique, and neither is making the other useless.

Very much this. The job that could come from CNJ could be a Geomancer/Elementalist (Though, Elementalist would probably be confusing considering the localization of CNJ in other languages.) that would focus on using terrain magic.

The same could be said for THM. They could make another Job (Necromancer?) that gets all it's old Sacrifice and resurrection spells back.

CNJ lore, however, never was truly butchered. Though I argued that it was at one point, the fact is we retained control of the three elements that really appeared in the Shroud (and if you're at all familiar with the lore, you'll understand why those would be the three that matter).

I remember this faintly. There's an egg the CNJ's have, a Dragon Egg (I think.), that is associated with Wind. Their Patron Goddess, Nophica (I think.), is a goddess of Earth and plenty. So, naturally, it can be seen why those three elements were chosen. Earth for the soil, water to make the soil fertile, and wind to scatter the seeds.

[Mychael]

I remember this faintly. There's an egg the CNJ's have, a Dragon Egg (I think.), that is associated with Wind. Their Patron Goddess, Nophica (I think.), is a goddess of Earth and plenty. So, naturally, it can be seen why those three elements were chosen. Earth for the soil, water to make the soil fertile, and wind to scatter the seeds.

Not to derail, but--even more simplistically, the shroud is a deep forest. It is abundant in soil, trees, streams (which keep the forest alive, and air (again life for the forest). Fire, ice, and thunder have no place in the shroud other than distruction.