Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Lucke]

How about if WAR keeps their Tank/DD ability and gives PLD the capability to heal themselves without the use of a WHM?

WAR has higher DD but needs a WHM to heal them.
PLD can heal themselves enough to survive without a healer (maybe at like, 75% efficiency) freeing up a slot for another DD to make up for the PLD's lack of damage. PLD obviously can't chain raise or anything, but can keep up with damage. PLD healing would also increase enmity on par with WAR AOE enmity.

Think of the holy trinity (Tank/Damage/Healer). Both tanks do 2 of those 3 jobs: WAR = Tank/DD, PLD = Tank/Healer

[Molly_Millions]

I think it's funny to see this thread go on this long based on old mechanics when we know that all the jobs are changing to some degree. Beta starts soon guys, pick this topic up after you see how the two classes are balanced now. You can argue over the old mechanics until you are blue in the face, but at the end of the day where does that get you?

[Velhart]

You know, to be honest, I am always confused on the road SE is taking. I originally thought they would take the Armory System to the extent that you would have jobs as roles that derive from the class itself. Like have Paladin(Tank) <> Dark Knight (DPS), similar to how a talent tree would work in WoW. Then I see a job like Warrior which specializes in both DPS and tanking, making me wonder what the other job would be. I have now just come to the conclusion that I don't have any solid theories on where the Armory System is going and just let myself be surprised when it is fleshed out.

On the matter of Paladin vs. Warrior, like I said in my earlier post, I really do believe that debates like this will be very rare. Just using WoW as an example (don't bring the torches and pitch forks towards me), most of the time (unless a new patch greatly unbalanced the classes, which happens sometimes), people usually look for a "geared" tank or "one who knows their role well", and doesn't take what they are into consideration. It is rare I hear someone say "Only a tanking Death Knight can handle this.". There is Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight, Druid, and Monk who can tank, and at least not in my guild, was one ever told they can't tank because they are "such and such".

To me, FFXIV was just a gigantic mess of trying to balance things. They brought in a job system that wasn't meant to be in it, and had a hell of a time balancing it. While going through a dungeon in a 17 minute speed run as PLD or WAR standalone without changing was more than possible and very viable. In a broad perspective, it was technically easier to AoE the mobs as WAR, and then switch to PLD on Chimera. In dungeons, I shouldn't have to switch between one or another, both should be equal on tanking capabilities in dungeons.

In 2.0, it needs to be where someone is looking for a tank in general, not a specific one. If SE can accomplish that, then they are balancing things right. I do not like it when fights have situational setups, which lead to leaving someone out. This was plagued in FFXI for years, and it hit almost as hard on FFXIV. Dragoon shouldn't be able to hit harder than Monk just because they have better ability and weapons, when it comes between the two, it should be the one with better gear and knows their job and skill rotation that becomes the better DPS, not by the job alone. This was done so horribly that jobs like Puppetmaster never saw the light of day in end game till way down the road (Hell I don't even know if they are used today).

Yoshida is taking inspiration from other MMO's when creating this game, I am sure the balancing of jobs he is taking inspiration from also, meaning I feel confident that what I said above may become a reality. Who knows, we will see pretty soon, right?

[Molly_Millions]

You know, to be honest, I am always confused on the road SE is taking. I originally thought they would take the Armory System to the extent that you would have jobs as roles that derive from the class itself. Like have Paladin(Tank) <> Dark Knight (DPS), similar to how a talent tree would work in WoW. Then I see a job like Warrior which specializes in both DPS and tanking, making me wonder what the other job would be. I have now just come to the conclusion that I don't have any solid theories on where the Armory System is going and just let myself be surprised when it is fleshed out.

On the matter of Paladin vs. Warrior, like I said in my earlier post, I really do believe that debates like this will be very rare. Just using WoW as an example (don't bring the torches and pitch forks towards me), most of the time (unless a new patch greatly unbalanced the classes, which happens sometimes), people usually look for a "geared" tank or "one who knows their role well", and doesn't take what they are into consideration. It is rare I hear someone say "Only a tanking Death Knight can handle this.". There is Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight, Druid, and Monk who can tank, and at least not in my guild, was one ever told they can't tank because they are "such and such".

To me, FFXIV was just a gigantic mess of trying to balance things. They brought in a job system that wasn't meant to be in it, and had a hell of a time balancing it. While going through a dungeon in a 17 minute speed run as PLD or WAR standalone without changing was more than possible and very viable. In a broad perspective, it was technically easier to AoE the mobs as WAR, and then switch to PLD on Chimera. In dungeons, I shouldn't have to switch between one or another, both should be equal on tanking capabilities in dungeons.

In 2.0, it needs to be where someone is looking for a tank in general, not a specific one. If SE can accomplish that, then they are balancing things right. I do not like it when fights have situational setups, which lead to leaving someone out. This was plagued in FFXI for years, and it hit almost as hard on FFXIV. Dragoon shouldn't be able to hit harder than Monk just because they have better ability and weapons, when it comes between the two, it should be the one with better gear and knows their job and skill rotation that becomes the better DPS, not by the job alone. This was done so horribly that jobs like Puppetmaster never saw the light of day in end game till way down the road (Hell I don't even know if they are used today).

Yoshida is taking inspiration from other MMO's when creating this game, I am sure the balancing of jobs he is taking inspiration from also, meaning I feel confident that what I said above may become a reality. Who knows, we will see pretty soon, right?

I agree, there shouldn't be one tank to rule them all. To a certain extent, you should be able to go through content with people on whatever jobs they like to play. Simply removing speed runs from the equation will help with that more than changing the job mechanics will.

[Reika]

This is why there needs to be a noticable difference between PLD and WAR, because they are the same practically in terms of Def and there high damage makes them hold hate good. I know PLD can do all those things too.. but with War have High Damage= Faster kills why would people pick PLD over WAR?

Then again, in order to facilitate a game that has more than one tank, which a good MMORPG has, the only difference there should be between warrior and paladin is the powers they use to get the same job done. EX: Paladin doesn't do a lot of damage with the sword alone, but with holy augmentation can match that of warriors. Same with their HP and blocking ability. XIV Warriors are like WoW's Death Knights, without the death. They are 2h tanks, and should get some boost to their parry abilities. All in all, somehow these two tanks and every tank that comes after them should have little to no difference in what they can tank, they just use their own powers to get the job done. And I think all hybrid style classes should just die by fire.

[Lucke]

You know, to be honest, I am always confused on the road SE is taking. I originally thought they would take the Armory System to the extent that you would have jobs as roles that derive from the class itself. Like have Paladin(Tank) <> Dark Knight (DPS), similar to how a talent tree would work in WoW. Then I see a job like Warrior which specializes in both DPS and tanking, making me wonder what the other job would be. I have now just come to the conclusion that I don't have any solid theories on where the Armory System is going and just let myself be surprised when it is fleshed out.

On the matter of Paladin vs. Warrior, like I said in my earlier post, I really do believe that debates like this will be very rare. Just using WoW as an example (don't bring the torches and pitch forks towards me), most of the time (unless a new patch greatly unbalanced the classes, which happens sometimes), people usually look for a "geared" tank or "one who knows their role well", and doesn't take what they are into consideration. It is rare I hear someone say "Only a tanking Death Knight can handle this.". There is Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight, Druid, and Monk who can tank, and at least not in my guild, was one ever told they can't tank because they are "such and such".

To me, FFXIV was just a gigantic mess of trying to balance things. They brought in a job system that wasn't meant to be in it, and had a hell of a time balancing it. While going through a dungeon in a 17 minute speed run as PLD or WAR standalone without changing was more than possible and very viable. In a broad perspective, it was technically easier to AoE the mobs as WAR, and then switch to PLD on Chimera. In dungeons, I shouldn't have to switch between one or another, both should be equal on tanking capabilities in dungeons.

In 2.0, it needs to be where someone is looking for a tank in general, not a specific one. If SE can accomplish that, then they are balancing things right. I do not like it when fights have situational setups, which lead to leaving someone out. This was plagued in FFXI for years, and it hit almost as hard on FFXIV. Dragoon shouldn't be able to hit harder than Monk just because they have better ability and weapons, when it comes between the two, it should be the one with better gear and knows their job and skill rotation that becomes the better DPS, not by the job alone. This was done so horribly that jobs like Puppetmaster never saw the light of day in end game till way down the road (Hell I don't even know if they are used today).

Yoshida is taking inspiration from other MMO's when creating this game, I am sure the balancing of jobs he is taking inspiration from also, meaning I feel confident that what I said above may become a reality. Who knows, we will see pretty soon, right?

I agree for the most part, but I don't want jobs too similar. If WAR and PLD both tank, why have both? All damage dealers do damage, why do we need 5? I think it's important to have that diversity. WAR and PLD both tank, they just do it a little bit differently.

WAR and PLD should both be able to tank, but each has their own play style.

[Kaizuko_Hakupac]

PLD definitely wasn't unwanted though. Most groups on Balmung used PLD in Garuda fights and Cutter's Cry. Even for moogles a lot of people used PLD over WAR. Just because you didn't want to use PLD doesn't make it useless or unwanted.

he was right though, no matter if a group uses PLD over WAR or the otherway around, the base stats for WAR are TOO similar to PLD, WAR would play out better with more crowd control abilitys, and a bit less DEF then PLD, imo it should be like this... PLD-tank,WAR-crowd/DD, then DDs, then Mages, but thats just my humble opinion.

as far as picking WAR over PLD, i dont know how they did it in your server, but the OP is right, WAR overall is used more then PLD, if PLD is used for cc,garuda, moogle ... the point is it should be used for tanking 90% of the content.. not a few here and there, just saying give PLD Tanking more boost then WARs, then introduce a second tanking class later to spice things up..

[Starlord]

War= Back-up
PLD= Main

They both can be tanks, but PLD really should be the "King" of tanks. If a War Outdoes a PLD, then something is really wrong with that picture.

[syntaxlies]

With Beta test just around the coner, I want to play tank but on 1.0 Warrior was it and nothing else. The difference in defense and hp between Paladin and Warrior were minimal. Every party and dungeon run was always a Warrior. Paladin was for the most part a unwanted class for endgame content. So I though to bring these up and see what people would like to see in ARR for Paladin and Warrior.

Paladin - Tank 2.0

Greater Defense - to be able to tackle multiple Mobs or Bosses without driving crazy the WHM with cures.

AOE emity skills - be able to run into a room and agro everything around him. Sample the 3 Garudas

Boss disabling skills - a skill that will knock down boss for a periot of time (4-8 sec.)

Greater DPS on a single Mob than 1.0.

Warrior - Crowd Control 2.0

More AOE attack skills - been able to run behind the tank and start attacking multiples Mobs for faster kills on a group.

Less Defense that Paladin - there really needs to be a noticeable difference between Paladin and Warrior squishiness if not everyone will still use just Warrior.

AOE enbledding skills - keeping with making Warrior a Crowd Control, mass killer.

Abilities to reduce or increase emity as needed - that way it can control the his emity to help removed mobs from other DPS classes or less to not take away Mobs from Tank.

I would love to hear what other people would like to see different from the 1.0 Paladin and Warrior or everyone is happy just to scrap Paladin and just make Warrior the tank.

What tank did you use on ifrit extreme, we used pld

[Duelle]

It's skill set was not meant to up its damage but to hold hate.

Maybe we should start looking at the "ROLE" we want to fill instead of just the "JOB" we want to play. If you love the role of tank, then level both and use the best tools at your disposal. (Many of you have EVERY job to 50 anyways.)

Sorry, but no. All this does is force people into jobs and classes they may not want anything to do with. I normally find axes barbaric and as such never was drawn to them. It'd be unfair to force me to play a class I don't like for the purpose of taking the role of tank.

At the end of the day, WAR & PLD are tanks. PLD does not shine in every situation, that's fine. Neither does WAR.

And this is bad design in the long run because it causes people to cherry pick jobs. Jobism was one of the major downsides of FFXI, and I don't want to see that here.

It's my opinion that, the ability to solo 'til 50 has negatively affected players ability to do their job in a group setting. We are literally learning how to play while doing endgame content (where we should KNOW our Jobs/Roles).

If dungeon design had been more than "speed run as quickly as you can!" and "evade all mobs by abusing their being leashed to avoid fighting 90% of the dungeon!", people would have had more opportunities in 1.0 to actually play to their chosen roles during the leveling process. Being able to solo to 50 had nothing to do with that.

War= Back-up
PLD= Main

They both can be tanks, but PLD really should be the "King" of tanks. If a War Outdoes a PLD, then something is really wrong with that picture.

Bad design in the long run, so I vote no.