Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Shougun]

I won't quote because I am lazy but..

Yeah I did basically say how WAR is basically a hybrid DD / Tank.. Doesn't compare to the other more specific jobs.

But yes when I talk about jobs, I talk about a job in its entirety, with all abilities and traits (ie level cap / end game). EXP parties I will admit, PLD has always been pretty trashy but in saying that - I don't really consider that to be where the job really defines itself. I mean MNK is almost as good a tank as WAR and GLD if you are talking about EXP parties.. At that sort of level / stage you don't want extremely defined roles as it allows very little flexibility.. However the EXP system is changing dramatically so there goes that anyway..

TBH I don't want WAR to be a tank. I would much rather see them more as a brute DD - slow, heavy attack speed, high damage and sure some AOE / devastating weaponskills. They should be a heavy AoE DD whereas at the moment they are far too "inbetween".

I think a few more enmity / damage mitigation skills for PLD would be enough but to be honest I think it is rather working as intended :/

Well they should just make WAR as you said then lol, I wouldnt mind him either way slow heavy hitter or a rage tank. But I also believe that PLD shouldnt be seen as total blow except for bosses >.> lol. Or WAR seen for blow except for large groups of trash mobs.


I mean PLD for caravan? LOLOLOL

[Altena]

I mean PLD for caravan? LOLOLOL

Any melee + caravan was garbage in comparison.
The worst thing about 1.x caravan & melee was having to get enough TP for a weaponskill before the mobs died. Once those mobs died, you are back to 0 TP. Obviously won't be the case in 2.0 but any melee was as bad as PLD in caravan IMO.

Well they should just make WAR as you said then lol, I wouldnt mind him either way slow heavy hitter or a rage tank.

In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

[Shougun]

Any melee + caravan was garbage in comparison.
The worst thing about 1.x caravan & melee was having to get enough TP for a weaponskill before the mobs died. Once those mobs died, you are back to 0 TP. Obviously won't be the case in 2.0 but any melee was as bad as PLD in caravan IMO.

Melee is bad compared to mages but I've seen some ok melee - however I think a gatherers wrist flick would have done more then paladin lol


But I can see it not being the best example lol


How about this: -any- leve that didnt involve a boss.

In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

Yeah you dont want to flood the market, I'm not sure 2 tank options would do that but you can always have more dps :P

I think the tanks just need a way to bump up their DPS enough that no one is like dammit PLD could you slow us down any more? In MOBAs most tanks can also deal a decent amount of damage - "tanky dps" being that almost annoying term to hear lol.

[Duelle]

TBH I don't want WAR to be a tank. I would much rather see them more as a brute DD - slow, heavy attack speed, high damage and sure some AOE / devastating weaponskills. They should be a heavy AoE DD whereas at the moment they are far too "inbetween".

This problem with this line of thinking is that reducing the number of tanks in-game is bad in the long run.

I'll admit that the current approach to WAR is iffy because of the stances. Where most games would allow the WAR to grow depending on which stance they prefer to play as, XIV is hindered on top of that by the armoury system. Frankly, if we're to keep the armoury system they need to chose a role and go with it. I'd prefer it to be tank just because we do need something more than just PLD for that role.

Now if the devs were to introduce SAM or BST as tanks to take up the spot on the tank roster occupied by WAR, I might be willing to support making WAR a full on DPS.

In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

You're going by the logic that divided people between "blood" tanking and Utsusemi tanking, which is fallacious given that the tank role is pretty much straightforward no matter how you slice it. The main difference between tanks should be along the lines of flavor rather than mechanics. That's what distinguishes the guy with a sword and shield from the guy with holy magic and a shield from the guy with a two-hander. You stray from that and you start forcing people to cherry pick jobs for their group comps.

8 is an iffy number for a full party, mostly due to what it allows in a group comp. Ideally that could mean two tanks, two healers, a bard, and space for 3 DPS. Limiting groups to one tank limits the developers as far as what can be done with encounters that require a full party. Sure, stuff like behest wouldn't require much, but a dungeon boss with mechanics might require an additional tank either for adds or taunting off each other or something to make the encounter interesting.

[Skinwalker]

If you want a different tanking style add Ninja with shadows :3

[Tonkra]

With Beta test just around the coner, I want to play tank but on 1.0 Warrior was it and nothing else. The difference in defense and hp between Paladin and Warrior were minimal. Every party and dungeon run was always a Warrior. Paladin was for the most part a unwanted class for endgame content. So I though to bring these up and see what people would like to see in ARR for Paladin and Warrior.

Paladin - Tank 2.0

Greater Defense - to be able to tackle multiple Mobs or Bosses without driving crazy the WHM with cures.

AOE emity skills - be able to run into a room and agro everything around him. Sample the 3 Garudas

Boss disabling skills - a skill that will knock down boss for a periot of time (4-8 sec.)

Greater DPS on a single Mob than 1.0.

Warrior - Crowd Control 2.0

More AOE attack skills - been able to run behind the tank and start attacking multiples Mobs for faster kills on a group.

Less Defense that Paladin - there really needs to be a noticeable difference between Paladin and Warrior squishiness if not everyone will still use just Warrior.

AOE enbledding skills - keeping with making Warrior a Crowd Control, mass killer.

Abilities to reduce or increase emity as needed - that way it can control the his emity to help removed mobs from other DPS classes or less to not take away Mobs from Tank.

I would love to hear what other people would like to see different from the 1.0 Paladin and Warrior or everyone is happy just to scrap Paladin and just make Warrior the tank.

Great ideas. My idea to push paladin would be:


HEALING AURA

I also would like, if the Paladin had something like Auras (think about Dark Age of Camelot in that point)

A Healing aura for the group which pulses and regenerates hit points real slow, but at least it would be somethin.

[Altena]

This problem with this line of thinking is that reducing the number of tanks in-game is bad in the long run.

What I meant by my post was that there are currently too many tanking classes in comparison to how many total jobs there are presently.. I feel that 1 tanking job is sufficient considering we only have 7 (soon 8) different jobs. Certainly as the 24-man content is released, and more jobs start to make an appearance, there is room for different tanking jobs but I don't think there should be as many tanking jobs as their are pure DPS jobs (which currently there are). However once again, there is only room in a party for a very limited number of tanks, and varying that too much will cause people to cry about "not playing their main jobs" as the slots are limited.

Now if the devs were to introduce SAM or BST as tanks to take up the spot on the tank roster occupied by WAR, I might be willing to support making WAR a full on DPS.
You're going by the logic that divided people between "blood" tanking and Utsusemi tanking, which is fallacious given that the tank role is pretty much straightforward no matter how you slice it. The main difference between tanks should be along the lines of flavor rather than mechanics. That's what distinguishes the guy with a sword and shield from the guy with holy magic and a shield from the guy with a two-hander. You stray from that and you start forcing people to cherry pick jobs for their group comps.

I agree with this, and is pretty much what I already said. There are many different ways of dealing damage, however taking it is rather limited.

8 is an iffy number for a full party, mostly due to what it allows in a group comp. Ideally that could mean two tanks, two healers, a bard, and space for 3 DPS. Limiting groups to one tank limits the developers as far as what can be done with encounters that require a full party. Sure, stuff like behest wouldn't require much, but a dungeon boss with mechanics might require an additional tank either for adds or taunting off each other or something to make the encounter interesting.

To be honest, I would rather 1 tank with 30 DD's taking down an enormous mob.. Call me a traditionalist but a lot of "dual tank" mechanics end in a main tank holding the boss, and the off-tank sitting in a corner voking adds all night. It never ends in a fun battle mechanic for the off-tank.

[Starlord]

Paladins.. should be the only "Main tank".Warrior "can" be a Tank, but it shouldn't have defense equal to a Paladin. When I see the word Warrior, I see a Person with an Axe or Sword ( even Dual Swords) and going all out on the enemy. I don't think of a Warrior as a Main tank, However Warriors are tough nuggets, so they can be a Back up Tank, if it so happens the Paladin is having trouble, or needs a second tank within a Battle.

To me, Overall Warriors are ment to be High Damaging (but low Crit-rate) DDers. Paladins Only task.. is to tank.. and they have not so good damage rate. So of course you have the give a Paladin a reason to even exist in the game, so you give them tanking Abilities. If you give Warrior the same thing ( equal as some people say), + Awesome tanking, I feel it makes a Paladin that much useless.

[MizoreShirayuki]

Jobs abilities are drastically changing in ARR. As such, discussions about job mechanics are moot seeing as we don't know what abilities they kept for PLD/WAR and what abilities they tossed in the trash for PLD/WAR. It's all speculation about 1.0 battle mechanics until beta starts...

[Reika]

I am no career PLD but it is pretty common knowledge how rampart works, and how useful it is for a nice initial hate boost. It seems to work for the most part when my group's tank opens the fight with it. Long cooldown aside, it shouldn't be the only thing you rely on for hate of course but for crowd control, it is more often then not enough to keep them looking at the PLD until the mobs die.



You have to remember that other DD's also start off with full TP - along with PLD. Even a WAR charging in with full TP and spamming every WS combo they have, it will not match or come close to a DRG or MNK's while under rampage (single target).

However, once again, in cases where there is a large crowd of mobs, hate does not have to be extremely heavy - just enough to hold the hate off the WHM until the mobs die which is 9 times out of 10, an extremely fast process (in the 1.x system).

While yes, WAR has the means of AOE / Crowd Control in a couple of situations, PLD is by far a more useful and solid tank in a huge majority of the situations in end game content so far. When your DD's start becoming extremely heavily geared, and your WAR's are trying to keep up - Provoke, Antagonise, and the weak WAR weapon skills (under Rampage) are definitely not enough to hold hate off those DRG or MNK zergs.

Yes the SC nerf, tied with the Collusion nerf reduced WAR's ability tenfold. It is much easier to pull hate off a WAR then it is a PLD, presuming they both know how to play those roles.



The action (regardless what action that is) that makes the mob go from passive to agressive does not increase any enmity. (Well at least in 1.x) There isn't really an answer for this in 2.0 as far as I am aware, but I daresay that won't change.

The problem with your take on rampart is that Warrior can use rampart too. 1 on 1, non-retarded pld vs non-retarded warrior, warrior will win at Aoe agro. You have to look at the skills that one job can use that the other cant, so rampart and sentinel have to come out of the factoring. In 2.0, having full tp at the start would help the warrior more with aoe threat than, because pld doesnt have any aoe based tp skills that it can use before a block (wardrum), while warrior can just go apeshit and win.

But in anycase, I was thinking at work and I think they can leave it like it is IF and ONLY IF the dungeons promote balanced play, meaning you'll always have a paladin and a warrior in the party. I won't mind working together, but I will mind it if you have to pick one or the other because the content will be much harder or impossible by having one of them around. I dispised the need to class stack and am looking forward to class and job changes that make it stupid or unneccisary to do so.