Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Shougun]

Exactly, even leveling Paladin was a pain compared to other classes unless you had your guild to help. Random grinding parties will take only one gladiator most of the time, at the 40+ parties; it was a maybe in my server since they all just wanted to go and aoe wolfs at the beast camp and prefer fast killing and aoes.

Almost every Paladin I ever talked to was powerleveled. Every paladin that talked about leveling (not powerleveled) said it was the most painful class to level, whm was easier to level solo.

I think just making Paladin have more damage abilities that relate to tanking or helping the party (like cover) and making warrior stay relatively about being rampaging (sort of how it is already) then we can have two tank classes both desirable for but play in different ways.

Like my zealous vigor example on the other page would work well solo, cast your defense spell then cast zealous vigor get a bunch of hate running through a camp shinning and then after loading up all the dps retribute their ass

[KiraHime]

Stuff

You have some interesting ideas but the problem with just dumping more dps output on WAR is under the current enmity generation formulas will make it the tank of choice by default.

WAR had survivability to an extent but the ability to generate a massive chunk of enmity with an opening damage combo gave it a such a head start that most people automatically assumed it was the uber tank. PLD had much more constant enmity generating abilities so they could create a stable curve of growing emnity, rather than the rapid spiking that a WAR could pull off with their combos. Abolishing overcures just made PLD's job even harder and required more understanding from dps in how PLD mechanics worked so they wouldn't run in guns blazing and pull hate.

Now I don't want to sound like I'm saying that all people who tanked on WAR were stupid or less skilled than PLD tanks, just that PLD's had more of an uphill battle with 1.0's mechanics.

Hopefully 2.0 will see the abolishment of the current 1:1 damage:enmity ratio which will go a long way into making PLD the dominant tank and allowing WAR to be the dps powerhouse that it was. Like has been said before a job that can ONLY tank should always be dominant at the tanking role. WAR was a dps that COULD tank but having it tank almost solely via it's dps output was unbalanced to say the least.

TL;DR SE needs to tweak the enmity generation formulas not just throw abilities at us.

[Shougun]

You have some interesting ideas but the problem with just dumping more dps output on WAR is under the current enmity generation formulas will make it the tank of choice by default.

WAR had survivability to an extent but the ability to generate a massive chunk of enmity with an opening damage combo gave it a such a head start that most people automatically assumed it was the uber tank. PLD had much more constant enmity generating abilities so they could create a stable curve of growing emnity, rather than the rapid spiking that a WAR could pull off with their combos. Abolishing overcures just made PLD's job even harder and required more understanding from dps in how PLD mechanics worked so they wouldn't run in guns blazing and pull hate.

Now I don't want to sound like I'm saying that all people who tanked on WAR were stupid or less skilled than PLD tanks, just that PLD's had more of an uphill battle with 1.0's mechanics.

Hopefully 2.0 will see the abolishment of the current 1:1 damage:enmity ratio which will go a long way into making PLD the dominant tank and allowing WAR to be the dps powerhouse that it was. Like has been said before a job that can ONLY tank should always be dominant at the tanking role. WAR was a dps that COULD tank but having it tank almost solely via it's dps output was unbalanced to say the least.

TL;DR SE needs to tweak the enmity generation formulas not just throw abilities at us.

Oh yeah I agree, thats why I said also give Paladins more dps ability, mostly relating to being a rock wall.

Like my example of the warrior was shrugging the damage turning damage into a DoT means that he has time to recover rather then being face rolled, but he still takes it (which is important because then he can also balance staying in the yellow for critical bonuses - which would benefit a lot of his other spells). However the Paladin would get spells about eating it up, through defense mitigation spells - or dps spells that say alright throw it at me I dare you I'm going to woop your ass with your own megaflare.

In this way both jobs have dps and tanking ability but within different play styles. So not only should Paladin be able to do a lot of stuff it normally cant but that there is no reason to not have other tank jobs.

[Kinseykinz]

The only reason this topic even exists is because the community in general didn't keep up with the WAR and PLD updates. PLD is a very desirable tank...so is WAR, but for different reasons. The only discrepancy still left between the roles is while WAR can tank it can fill the role of basic DD. PLD's don't get quite the same flexibility...but that is okay because PLD's are Tanking Specialists, whereas Warriors are supposed to be 'All around fighters'

This said, by the end of 1.0, most content ran more smoothly with PLD assuming the role of Main Tank and WAR's being either DD's or off-tanks. People just got so hung up on Parcers and DPS they completely mis-judged PLD...PLD's can take an amazing amount of damage AND mitigate an fair amount of damage the party would otherwise eat with some of their party buffs etc. But this comes at the cost of their own personal damage. But a party consisting of PLD/WHM/DD'sX6 puts out crazy damage, while gaining extra survivability.

Plus, we don't know what jobs will be introduced in the future, but I would be willing to bet the GLA class WILL spawn a DD job one day of some type.

And PLD friends: sometimes it just feels like no one is inviting PLD's when in fact, they are. Like WHM, it's a 'we only need one in a party' role...and once a party/ls has recruited a solid Tank and Healer, they don't get replaced often. Whereas other DPS like roles, can be filled by a variety of classes/jobs. The blessing/curse of being a 'specialist'.

[razz]

If we have more than one DPS job, why shouldn't we have the choice of 2 different tanks? We never cared about Tank being PLD or WAR, just what the Tank used to play and having proper equipment.

[Firon]

PLD dmg was not piss poor once they buffed its ws dmg and lowered the cool down on Spiritswithin, you would be surprised how much pld and war do the same amount of dmg to a single target.

Only thing war had over pld it was able to hold more hate vs more mobs cause of Steel Derpclone.

[darkstarpoet1]

the difference between pld and war is the player using them and how well they were geared honestly. war had a higher starting point and a lower ceiling. a bad war was better than a bad pld. the pld took the top tanking spot when you looked at the top level of each job. a good skilled pld with good gear was much better than a good skilled war with good gear. the reason people usually asked for war is because unless the person was a good pld and was geared well then war was the safer choice. once people started learning how to play pld well and got their gear upgraded pld became the better choice.

low level gear and skill
War>>>>>Pld

great gear and skilled
Pld>>>>>>>>War

[Quatre]

the difference between pld and war is the player using them and how well they were geared honestly. war had a higher starting point and a lower ceiling. a bad war was better than a bad pld. the pld took the top tanking spot when you looked at the top level of each job. a good skilled pld with good gear was much better than a good skilled war with good gear. the reason people usually asked for war is because unless the person was a good pld and was geared well then war was the safer choice. once people started learning how to play pld well and got their gear upgraded pld became the better choice.

low level gear and skill
War>>>>>Pld

great gear and skilled
Pld>>>>>>>>War

This.

Also Steel Cyclone threat was inferior to self heals, AOE flash, and War Drum.



Another thing is that Spirits Within damage never showed up on the parsers for some fights if you were using Taichi's (sp)
With Curtana I was easily dealing nearly as much damage on single target fights as a warrior, and much more on physically resistant mobs (lolchimera) . Once you get into Garuda/ Princess where AOE dmg is involved WAR pulls ahead.

[Reika]

This.

Also Steel Cyclone threat was inferior to self heals, AOE flash, and War Drum.



Another thing is that Spirits Within damage never showed up on the parsers for some fights if you were using Taichi's (sp)
With Curtana I was easily dealing nearly as much damage on single target fights as a warrior, and much more on physically resistant mobs (lolchimera) . Once you get into Garuda/ Princess where AOE dmg is involved WAR pulls ahead.

And if this keeps up, no one can really have a Job preference. We will be forced to play a less desired Job or just not do the content, thus making the experiance less fun.

Everyone has had their own experiences on the jobs with the content, but when it comes to the numbers, X job is better than Y job at it.

[darkstarpoet1]

This.

Also Steel Cyclone threat was inferior to self heals, AOE flash, and War Drum.



Another thing is that Spirits Within damage never showed up on the parsers for some fights if you were using Taichi's (sp)
With Curtana I was easily dealing nearly as much damage on single target fights as a warrior, and much more on physically resistant mobs (lolchimera) . Once you get into Garuda/ Princess where AOE dmg is involved WAR pulls ahead.

that's kinda the point i was making though. if a pld was geared well and the person was good at playing them then it was actually better than a war in MOST situations. granted, there were situations like in cc on the princess where the war would shine, but i don't mind it having encounters where another tank is a better option.

my only point is if you ranked people on a bar 1-5 depending on their gear and 1-5 on their skill then people that are ranked 1-3 average on those are better off as war, but 4 and 5 level ranked players are much better on pld.