"You Will Die" Difficulty... Can I Have It?

[IndigoDarkwolf]

So the only course of action for a successful MMO is to treadmill the gear rewards? Just flat out make content that is impossible until you have the right gear, and have that content drop the gear you need for the next content, which drops the gear you need for the content after that, in perpetuity?

[fusional]

So the only course of action for a successful MMO is to treadmill the gear rewards? Just flat out make content that is impossible until you have the right gear, and have that content drop the gear you need for the next content, which drops the gear you need for the content after that, in perpetuity?

i never said it's the only course, and i'm not sure where you got the impression that i did. i didn't even imply it. care to clue me in to your thought process there?

but anyway, yes. gear and content progression is what keeps people playing, and people playing keeps communities strong. love it or hate it, it's the foundation of EQ's success, FFXI's success after it, and WoW's success after that. that's not to say that they can't improve on the model, but without it people simply jump to end, beat it, then never log in again until a new patch or expansion.

do you think the most casual players should be entitled to the best gear in the game? do you think they should be entitled to experiencing every bit of content that the most hardcore players see?

should someone who works four hours per week get the same pay and the same perks as someone who works 80? should there not be any perks for the person who works 80 simply because there are people who don't?

[IndigoDarkwolf]

i never said it's the only course, and i'm not sure where you got the impression that i did. i didn't even imply it. care to clue me in to your thought process there?

Well, here's two examples, one each from your previous post and your response to me:

they did the content, they got the stuff, and they can't improve their characters any further outside of cosmetics

but anyway, yes. gear and content progression is what keeps people playing

The content should be challenging, that's a good thing. The content should take a while to complete, that's a good thing, too. So why does tiered gear have to be tied to content unlocks?

There are only two differences between using tiered gear as a gating mechanism to new content and using key items or rare consumables as a gating mechanism to new content:

• Tiered gear creates an illusory sense of skill gains by making it possible to attempt content without a realistic possibility of completing it. When you do complete the content, it was because your gear was better, not you.
• Tiered gear leads to a power treadmill which excludes players from joining their friends until they have completed every shred of content between them.

I have nothing against quest arcs or storylines that take upwards of two months to complete. I agree that if content is too easy and completed too quickly, players will get bored and abandon the game.

I'm saying that, unless the ultimate motivation for players is gear that is unilaterally better than all gear before it, then the better solution for all players is to use a different gating mechanism. Using a different gating mechanism, however, means re-evaluating the reward mechanism, or else new content will be too easy on account of players' stats always going up.

If you're going to say that I'm on the wrong side of the conversation because I want players to be able to attempt an expansion's new content - to join their friends and have the opportunity to spend a few months figuring out how to defeat the new content, even if they never do as a result of time, money, skill, or other constraints - and to do so without having to first spend months of time catching up on previous content just to meet gear tier requirements or leeching while their friends re-grind the content for them, regardless of those new players' skill or potential, then we'll probably never see eye-to-eye on this issue. Stop reading, because nothing else I have to say will be of any interest to you.

If tiered gear is the only answer, that would actually be kind of depressing to me, because that would mean that MMOs are "solved" and the only route to success is to end up following the path of Dragonball Z. Just keep adding more power to the world until the subscriber numbers max out, then constantly scale back your development team to only cater to however many players are the most hardcore, until there's no longer enough players to keep the game afloat. Meanwhile, have the rest of your team work on your next MMO because people will just move to it, starting from level 0.

If content is a stronger motivator, then the question is how to gate the content appropriately so that it can't be completed too quickly. MacGuffins, disposable key items, bosses with puzzle aspects to their fight, etc. There are lots of ways to gate players, including sheer difficulty. This doesn't require a gear treadmill.

If challenge is a stronger motivator, then the question is how to make sure the content is challenging without a gear treadmill. Honestly, this seems like the easiest problem: Make the bosses' stat numbers bigger in relation to the players, and/or change their fight to favor the actions which required the most attention and fastest reactions from the players, that had the most opportunity to wipe the party in the event of a mistake. Van Darnus Hard, Garuda Hard, etc. This doesn't require a gear treadmill, either, in fact a gear treadmill negates whatever effort was spent here making a fight challenging, and all but ensures that the fight will eventually be trivial.

[Velhart]

So the only course of action for a successful MMO is to treadmill the gear rewards? Just flat out make content that is impossible until you have the right gear, and have that content drop the gear you need for the next content, which drops the gear you need for the content after that, in perpetuity?

MMO's all have one thing in common, and it is called "progression". The reason MMO's are even popular today is because it builds a concept of dangling something in your face that you must have. It is a feeling of empowerment, to be better than everyone else. The reason gear progression is the ideal choice in most situations is simply because it helps display that empowerment. It may sound silly, but the feeling of walking into town with the best gear on you feels a lot better than coming in with the same crap you wear all the time with a good record.

Even take FFXIV 1.xx for example, how good does it feel to walk in Ul'Dah with a full set of Darklight on you? Well, I wouldn't know because the damn pieces I want never dropped, but that is a topic of the past. Anyways, that feeling alone really is what keeps you going, that feeling of empowerment and accomplishment alone. Could it be reworked? Sure. What I ask is this: Why change what isn't broken or outdated? Why must we be original on this concept?

I agree with Yoshida that being "too unique" can be a real downfall of an MMO, it also is one of the reasons that FFXIV 1.xx was a failure. I am not saying to not bring unique concepts in an MMO, because the genre itself will never take that next step. At the same time however, you do have to bring that sense of familiarity in. The genre itself has gotten to a point that it has it's standards like a FPS or fighting game.

Lets put that other genre into perspective also. When you play an FPS, you expect that sense of familiarity don't you? What happens when you switch this around, do something unique that feels out of place of the genre? People get scared of it. Could it be a success? Sure. However, the best approach to any genre to me is simply, "Take what is good, and make it better.". WoW may of not been the first MMO, but it definitely created a standard in the genre like Street Fighter 2 did to fighting games.

Actually that is another genre you can take perspective on. Street Fighter 2 basically set the standard for 2D fighting games. You see successes like King of Fighters and Darkstalkers follow it. You know why they were a success also? Because they took the genre standard, and improved upon it to make it their own unique game without changing the standard.

That is how I feel about FFXIV 2.0, it takes the standard and improves upon it. What is one unique thing that it does that most MMO's do not? An Armory System. You will be surprised on how appealing this system is and why FFXI was a major success outside FF players alone. The thought of changing your job on the go sounds so great because you don't have to make 10+ alts to play everything, you have access to everything the game has to offer from one character alone.

Then you ask me, "Hey Vel, what does all this babbling have to do with my statement about gear?". Well, gear progression is an MMO standard. Like I said above, the feeling of empowerment is very powerful in an MMO and changing that around can potentially cause an issue of commitment. I played GW2 and had a blast with it, I got to the end and I felt like my options were, go PvP, or do dungeons. As a strong PvE player, I said to myself that I will do the dungeons. I play through them and they are "okay". Then I learn (please correct me if I am wrong), that gear you obtain in the game does not improve you much and kind of easy to get access to.

To me, it is something that set me apart from GW2. I am all for looking cool, but really, it diminishes that feeling of empowerment, which is what I need to depend on the PvP concept to give me. Which also made me realize that GW2 is more of PvP game than anything. Have they improved upon this? Can't say, I haven't been on the game for quite a while now.

Next argument is, "Make gear like FFXI/FFXIV". While I will not say this concept is bad at all, it is very meh also. I do not want to be fighting for the same piece of gear for over 7 years like I did in FFXI. I want to feel like my character battle wise has progressed in some form every day. I want something new to aim for in every major patch update. I look back in my FFXI days and I ask myself, "How did I put up with it?". Of course FFXI was more of an EQ game and that is how it was simply. I don't want to be wearing a Haubergeon or Kirin's Osode for 7 years, I don't want situational gear. I want a piece of gear that says, "This is obviously better than what you have on right now, toss that thing aside and wear me now!". Then when the new dungeon comes out, I want the next piece of gear to say, "This is obviously better than what you have on right now, toss that thing aside and wear me now!". It keeps the game fresh and make the goal not feel stale.

I have a Gae Bolg on my character. Do I want it to be the ultimate weapon for the rest of the game's career? No. I already want something better than it. I want a new goal to hit. You can slap a +1 on it for all I care, but I want a new goal every once in a while. I can't be satisfied with this one weapon for the rest of the game, it has to improve, or a weapon to surpass it.

TL;DR: So in short, I feel gear progression is genre standard that doesn't need to be tampered with. It can be improved, but it doesn't need to be altered.

As for difficulty in dungeons. Sure I am game for it, at the same time, you need to approach it well. The bosses can't simply be the same thing, just with more HP and attack power. It needs to do things that they wouldn't do in an easier mode, like new abilities or areas to fight them in. Needs to be different enough that you need to rework your strategy to overcome it.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

Wall of text

Cripes, I could spend an hour trying to pick that apart. Let me see if I can summarize the high notes:

• MMO progression is, always has been, will always be gear tiers.
• Gear tiers are also the dominant reward that players want; content, challenge, etc. are just gating mechanisms to gear tiers.
• Being different is bad. Any MMO that doesn't emulate WoW is doomed to failure.
• You liked GW2, except for the end-game content, but you left because you heard there wasn't tiered gear.
• You don't like PVP, but if you did you wouldn't want to play except with top-tier gear.
• You don't want to make decisions about gear, you just want better gear. Really, all you want is gear.

That about sum it up?

[Velhart]

[*]MMO progression is, always has been, will always be gear tiers.

Yep. That is how most MMO companies think. If they come up with something better, good for them, but this concept isn't broken or need to be fixed.

[*]Gear tiers are also the dominant reward that players want; content, challenge, etc. are just gating mechanisms to gear tiers.

Yep. Needs a fine balance of all those things. Like I said, you can always improve the concept, but if the thing you are dangling in my face is not worthwhile, then my influence to obtain it is not there, thus potentially having the player quit the game.

[*]Being different is bad. Any MMO that doesn't emulate WoW is doomed to failure.

Potentially yes. At the same time, if you emulate every concept it has, it is doomed for failure also. If you actually read what I said, it said that you need familiarity to reel you in, then slap you with a unique concept to keep you hooked onto it. Actually I will use GW2 as an example. While it was not my cup of tea, it is a very well designed game concept wise. It has familiar concepts, at the same time though, it brought unique concepts to the genre that definitely makes it stand out on it's own. You can easily say WoW and GW2 are not the same game at all, at the same time, the core of their game is essentially the same.

If you want to risk millions and millions of dollars that could potentially bankrupt your company to make this "unique" game? You have to bring some form of familiarity, or no one will even care to look at your game. You can't be unique just to be unique, this was why FFXIV did so badly. You have to believe that this new and unique concept is necessary to make the game better.

Take Resident Evil 4 as an example. It's core gameplay is still that of the RE titles before it, but simply creating the over-the-shoulder camera angle and better aiming mechanic, not only did it take the same concepts as RE1-3 and improve upon it, it created it's own standard, and various games used it's concept like Dead Space and Gears of War that improved upon it. Take what is good and make it better.

[*]You liked GW2, except for the end-game content, but you left because you heard there wasn't tiered gear.

I left because I got bored. The game couldn't convince me to engage in it's end game content. It flashed pretty gear at me, but wasn't interested.

[*]You don't like PVP, but if you did you wouldn't want to play except with top-tier gear.

Actually I do enjoy PvP, but I don't have a competitive nature beyond self-accomplishment. Actually, this is one place I can argue against a gear based system. It was never fun in WoW dealing with someone who's gear was so high that I could barely put a dent on him. GW2 I believed did it right however in this aspect and why I understand where their concepts come from. However I believe that gear tier and PvP can work if done right. Such as putting higher tier with higher tier, or design it so you compete with others based on your rank, or have the option of a non-ranked battle.

[*]You don't want to make decisions about gear, you just want better gear. Really, all you want is gear.

Why actually....yes! Why shouldn't developers tell me that this piece is obviously better than your last piece? It is the developer's responsibility to make sure the game is as easy to understand as possible without hindering the challenge or difficulty the game provides. I don't need this overly complex gear system where people debate on each other about endlessly on forums such as this. If I am a Dragoon, don't give me gear that tells me "Ohh this will be good in this particular fight." or "I can use this to make my Fire better.". No, to me it is just too overly complex for it's own good. As a Dragoon, just tell me "Okay, you need STR, ATK, and Crit. If your Dragoon has these, he will be powerful.".

You know what the situational gear system appeals to? Hardcore players. The team isn't making this game just for the hardcore players, they are also making it for people who are just stepping into the MMO genre. If I was playing an MMO for the first time and dealing with situational gear, it would be a turn off. FFXI was fine because that is just how it was, and really, MMO's were more catered to a hardcore base. With gear, it needs to be simple and have depth to it. It shouldn't have to be debated on what is best for your character. You should be slapped in the face with it from the start.

You also forget that higher gear doesn't necessarily make you a better player. Skill is also a balance to consider in it. If you can't play your job well and have good gear, you won't surpass someone who has somewhat lower gear with the skill to back it up.

So yes, that sums it up.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

Wall of text.

Yep. That is how most MMO companies think. If they come up with something better, good for them, but this concept isn't broken or need to be fixed.



Yep. Needs a fine balance of all those things. Like I said, you can always improve the concept, but if the thing you are dangling in my face is not worthwhile, then my influence to obtain it is not there, thus potentially having the player quit the game.



Potentially yes. At the same time, if you emulate every concept it has, it is doomed for failure also. If you actually read what I said, it said that you need familiarity to reel you in, then slap you with a unique concept to keep you hooked onto it. Actually I will use GW2 as an example. While it was not my cup of tea, it is a very well designed game concept wise. It has familiar concepts, at the same time though, it brought unique concepts to the genre that definitely makes it stand out on it's own. You can easily say WoW and GW2 are not the same game at all, at the same time, the core of their game is essentially the same.

If you want to risk millions and millions of dollars that could potentially bankrupt your company to make this "unique" game? You have to bring some form of familiarity, or no one will even care to look at your game. You can't be unique just to be unique, this was why FFXIV did so badly. You have to believe that this new and unique concept is necessary to make the game better.

Take Resident Evil 4 as an example. It's core gameplay is still that of the RE titles before it, but simply creating the over-the-shoulder camera angle and better aiming mechanic, not only did it take the same concepts as RE1-3 and improve upon it, it created it's own standard, and various games used it's concept like Dead Space and Gears of War that improved upon it. Take what is good and make it better.



I left because I got bored. The game couldn't convince me to engage in it's end game content. It flashed pretty gear at me, but wasn't interested.



Actually I do enjoy PvP, but I don't have a competitive nature beyond self-accomplishment. Actually, this is one place I can argue against a gear based system. It was never fun in WoW dealing with someone who's gear was so high that I could barely put a dent on him. GW2 I believed did it right however in this aspect and why I understand where their concepts come from. However I believe that gear tier and PvP can work if done right. Such as putting higher tier with higher tier, or design it so you compete with others based on your rank, or have the option of a non-ranked battle.



Why actually....yes! Why shouldn't developers tell me that this piece is obviously better than your last piece? It is the developer's responsibility to make sure the game is as easy to understand as possible without hindering the challenge or difficulty the game provides. I don't need this overly complex gear system where people debate on each other about endlessly on forums such as this. If I am a Dragoon, don't give me gear that tells me "Ohh this will be good in this particular fight." or "I can use this to make my Fire better.". No, to me it is just too overly complex for it's own good. As a Dragoon, just tell me "Okay, you need STR, ATK, and Crit. If your Dragoon has these, he will be powerful.".

You know what the situational gear system appeals to? Hardcore players. The team isn't making this game just for the hardcore players, they are also making it for people who are just stepping into the MMO genre. If I was playing an MMO for the first time and dealing with situational gear, it would be a turn off. FFXI was fine because that is just how it was, and really, MMO's were more catered to a hardcore base. With gear, it needs to be simple and have depth to it. It shouldn't have to be debated on what is best for your character. You should be slapped in the face with it from the start.

So yes, that sums it up.

"Brevity is the soul of wit." - Lord Polonius, Hamlet, Shakespeare, 1602.

You also forget that higher gear doesn't necessarily make you a better player. Skill is also a balance to consider in it. If you can't play your job well and have good gear, you won't surpass someone who has somewhat lower gear with the skill to back it up.

I forgot nothing. Please see my earlier post, where I said:

• Tiered gear creates an illusory sense of skill gains by making it possible to attempt content without a realistic possibility of completing it. When you do complete the content, it was because your gear was better, not you.

There are lots of ways to gate players, including sheer difficulty.

So your position is that MMOs are solved and gear tiers are the path to success. Okay, that's a valid opinion. One I disagree with, so we're at an impasse.