"You Will Die" Difficulty... Can I Have It?

[Solace]

It's hard to make the community agree on the "Separation" issue it rises.
But at the same time some people want more of a challenge.
Some people have better hand/eye coordination and patience.

To put it bluntly..
Some people have more skill than others.
I know some people get mad to think "I am not as good as that other person in this game".
But that's life.. There are simply some things that other people will be, yes. "Better" at than you..
I know, it's a crazy idea but hear me out..

It only leads to that logic, that those people need a harder challenge, to feel equally challenged and feel equally accomplished at the end..
There are a lot of people who don't want to spend 14 hours trying to beat Ifrit.
But there are a lot of people who do want to spend 14 hours trying to beat Ifrit.

The only separation it causes is inside the black hearts of people who call themselves "Elitesits".
People who would crap on you rather than help you, with a single thing.

Let me clarify..
Being Elite and being an Eliteist is NOT the same thing.
You earn Elite status.
Eliteists are just A-holes and always will be.
No matter of game difficulty will change that.
They are A-holes in life and are so therefore A-holes in game..
Just don't play with them.
You don't need them and you seriously don't need to be comparing yourselves to them.

It's like a nice girl trying to compare herself to Paris Hilton..
Why would she?
Paris is a whore...lol..

PS: Well said Kinsey.

[fusional]

I'm not saying I'm against hard content, but is it worth developer's time to create super hard content.

This is a bell curve. If you ever learn statistics, this is used constantly


Making content that is for the farther right (like SD+1 or SD+2), more hardcore, group worth their effort? Content that 16 to 2% of player can will enjoy? Or is it, as a developer, better to make content for more left, less hardcore, group. Like at the SD-1 spot would be probably ideal, for profit. 84% of the population could handle that.

In short, hardcore content is not really cost effective from a development stand point. Resources to to appease 2 to 16% of the player base is hardly worth it.

EDIT: This is just a sample bell curve. Just used to make a point.

and yet it's weird how all the MMOs that are failing are the ones without challenging content, right? except it's not weird at all. when you make content easy, more of the playerbase experiences it. absolutely. but they finish it fast, and then they have nothing to do. then they get bored and quit, moving on to the next game which just follows the pattern.

hard content gives players long terms goals to work towards, and that keeps them around longer. and the longer they stay around, the more the community benefits.

so in theory, your post might make sense. in practice it's wrong, as cost efficiency doesn't mean shit when saving money leads to fewer long-term subscriptions and a rapidly dying game.

[fusional]

But, unless you have a dedicated static/group you do everything with AND play together often (like 4-5+nights a week), you stand little chance of being able to clear this, regardless of your actual skill.

which may be true for NAs, but i've never understood why it *is* true when the JP community has no problem pugging the stuff all the time. and trust me- it's not due to any skill gap.

Besides, 'hardmode' sliders are really just a cheap way of re-using existing content over and over. "Hey guys we just beat Iffy Easy-mode. Lets try Normal...cool beat that, lets try Hard...beat that....lets do extreeme..." Instead of 'Woot we beat Ifrit! Lets go work on clearing Garuda!'

ehhh. yes and no. in THAT GAME WHICH SHALL NOT BE MENTIONED, hardmodes almost categorically changed how fights worked, to the extent that if you were working on the hardmode you were essentially learning an almost entirely new fight. yeah the boss is the same, and it's in the same zone, but the behavior was very different, the strategy was very different and the loot was either different or upgraded versions of the normal loot.

if all they're doing is increasing HP/defense/regen/attack and making environmental hazards cover more ground or hit harder, then it is a bit gimmicky and definitely qualifies as recycling content. but it can absolutely be done right, where you're only fighting the same boss in name alone.

[Kinseykinz]

ehhh. yes and no. in THAT GAME WHICH SHALL NOT BE MENTIONED, hardmodes almost categorically changed how fights worked, to the extent that if you were working on the hardmode you were essentially learning an almost entirely new fight. yeah the boss is the same, and it's in the same zone, but the behavior was very different, the strategy was very different and the loot was either different or upgraded versions of the normal loot.

if all they're doing is increasing HP/defense/regen/attack and making environmental hazards cover more ground or hit harder, then it is a bit gimmicky and definitely qualifies as recycling content. but it can absolutely be done right, where you're only fighting the same boss in name alone.

I meant it more along the lines you're discribing

Beat easy version. Work on new strategy/clear for normal version. Beat normal... start working on strategy and clear of hard...etc. sorry for the lack of clarity. My bigger point is that I'd prefer the battle to just be 'hardmode' from the beginning, no difficulity sliders needed. I'd rather they add a variety of content across all skill levels than fewer actual things to do, but more ways to basically beat the same content.

As to the PUGS, I honestly think JA's are more selective in who they PUG with than NA's and are willing to spend more time building a party than we are...that and they stick in the PUG much longer, agree to meet back again if making progress etc. We aren't typically as proactive and patient. Don't take this as facts...just what I've noticed since playing

[fusional]

I meant it more along the lines you're discribing

Beat easy version. Work on new strategy/clear for normal version. Beat normal... start working on strategy and clear of hard...etc. sorry for the lack of clarity. My bigger point is that I'd prefer the battle to just be 'hardmode' from the beginning, no difficulity sliders needed. I'd rather they add a variety of content across all skill levels than fewer actual things to do, but more ways to basically beat the same content.

understood.

i think it depends a lot on the progression of endgame, and just how many options there are. another thing about WoW to consider is that there were 25 man raids, and it took a while to totally gear up everyone in your guild. as with any MMO, then, you were stuck farming the same stuff for quite a while until everyone was properly geared, but some players outgeared others.

what was to keep them from just getting sick of the grind and not logging in again until a new expansion?

hardmodes were the answer. they could revisit the content, effectively learn a new fight with a fresh challenge, and stay interested a bit longer while the rest of their guild caught up. and there were generally perks to go along with it (higher item level gear, new trinkets, etc)

it's a tough line to walk, sure. people get tired of the grind, the endless gear treadmill, and developers of new MMOs have tried to take some of the grind away and streamline the process. but as we can see, the games which are retaining subscribers are the ones that have kept to the treadmill tradition, and the new games trying to revolutionize this fade quickly.

(or in some instances they still have the traditional grind, but not enough stuff to grind for)

so on one hand, i don't want content to be recycled. i don't want to get sick of it. i don't want to feel like i'm running in place for ages. but on the other hand i don't want to suffer from "been there, done that" after just a few short months, either.

[Altena]

There will be hard content that only a small number of the population will beat before the next update is released - and that's the way to it. I remember reading Yoshi answering a question in an interview or something about content (this was originally about 1.x but I don't believe his vision has changed all that much). He said something like "If the content/battle testers in the office can beat it, then it's too easy, as the players will beat it".. Something along those lines at least..

The ability to choose your difficulty is going to exist.
Yes the rewards will reflect the difficulty.
No the "casuals" players should not feel entitled to "rare" or "hard to obtain" items for beating easy content.
Yes items are "rare" because only a minority are able to obtain them.
It does motivate / encourage players (hardcore or casual) to continue playing the game, if there is something to do.

In between a patch, what did you do when you were done with the content? I know all I did was sit in Ul'dah helping random people with AF quests and what not.. It is boring when there is nothing to strive for. Some casual players expect that the regular players should be held back because these casual players are not able to achieve what regulars do.

To be honest, I see more casual players standing around in Ul'dah complaining about not completing content, when the "hardcore" players are out there doing it.

As a casual player: You can not expect to hold a regular player back, waiting for content to be released because they breezed through it, when you have barely even touched it. You cannot complete hard content or obtain the rarer gear because you do not earn it.

This "I am entitled to everything a player who plays 10x as much as me" mentality can shove it. I consider myself a "regular" player, there are many more hardcore then me - however if the content was any easier, even me as a "regular" player would be sitting on 7 relics.

[fusional]

good post. i agree. and it's refreshing to see that perspective from a more casual player. cheers

[IndigoDarkwolf]

As a player who started from a more casual background, I'll say that the treadmill effect can be daunting. When I join an MMO, hoping to play with friends, I find it very de-motivating if I learn that the only way to actually play with my friends is to grind my way through prerequisite content for months at a time. I thought WoW was especially bad at this, as several of my friends made efforts to keep alts that could play with me, but something would inevitably happen to start diverging the two characters, and after that it was basically a lost cause that left me soloing again. The cross-realm dungeon queue helped a lot once it was implemented, but by that point I was going to have to hit the level cap and then have to grind through raids that nobody wanted to play anymore.

It's like that game was designed to prevent friends from playing together, which seems strange for a game type defined by its social elements.

Totally an aside: Some people consider PL'ing an exploit. They complain about how they can raise characters very quickly on FFXI. I think it's a necessary pressure valve to allow new players into the game, to allow them to play the same content as their friends.

As for having progressively harder fights, I still don't think there's any harm in asking for ultra-difficult settings, but I think the rewards should be thought out very carefully to avoid the treadmill effect. I'm not advocating for nerfed rewards, or no rewards at all, I'm suggesting that unilaterally better gear is probably the wrong route. I'll advocate for side-grades, not up-grades. Or I'll advocate for something to offer different playstyle options without appreciably buffing the player's power level. Or even just alternate meshes and textures for existing equipment. There are many types of carrot.

Some players will insist on only playing the hardest difficulties, and refuse to play with anyone who doesn't feel up to the challenge. Good for them. I still think that's an elitist attitude I don't want to play with, anyways, so it's no loss to me if they leave, as long as they don't leave mid-fight.

[fusional]

I'm not advocating for nerfed rewards, or no rewards at all, I'm suggesting that unilaterally better gear is probably the wrong route. I'll advocate for side-grades, not up-grades. Or I'll advocate for something to offer different playstyle options without appreciably buffing the player's power level. Or even just alternate meshes and textures for existing equipment.

GW2 tries this. it doesn't work. they sold a couple million boxes and over half the population stopped logging in after just a couple months. why? because there's no reason to log in anymore. they did the content, they got the stuff, and they can't improve their characters any further outside of cosmetics. it's not enough.

if you want that for casual players, fine. it works perfectly for that demographic. but if you want an entire game built around that, and for every tier of gamer to have the same sort of rewards- your game will fail. horribly.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

So the only course of action for a successful MMO is to treadmill the gear rewards? Just flat out make content that is impossible until you have the right gear, and have that content drop the gear you need for the next content, which drops the gear you need for the content after that, in perpetuity?