"You Will Die" Difficulty... Can I Have It?

[Stephen]

There will be hard content that only a small number of the population will beat before the next update is released - and that's the way to it. I remember reading Yoshi answering a question in an interview or something about content (this was originally about 1.x but I don't believe his vision has changed all that much). He said something like "If the content/battle testers in the office can beat it, then it's too easy, as the players will beat it".. Something along those lines at least..

The ability to choose your difficulty is going to exist.
Yes the rewards will reflect the difficulty.
No the "casuals" players should not feel entitled to "rare" or "hard to obtain" items for beating easy content.
Yes items are "rare" because only a minority are able to obtain them.
It does motivate / encourage players (hardcore or casual) to continue playing the game, if there is something to do.

In between a patch, what did you do when you were done with the content? I know all I did was sit in Ul'dah helping random people with AF quests and what not.. It is boring when there is nothing to strive for. Some casual players expect that the regular players should be held back because these casual players are not able to achieve what regulars do.

To be honest, I see more casual players standing around in Ul'dah complaining about not completing content, when the "hardcore" players are out there doing it.

As a casual player: You can not expect to hold a regular player back, waiting for content to be released because they breezed through it, when you have barely even touched it. You cannot complete hard content or obtain the rarer gear because you do not earn it.

This "I am entitled to everything a player who plays 10x as much as me" mentality can shove it. I consider myself a "regular" player, there are many more hardcore then me - however if the content was any easier, even me as a "regular" player would be sitting on 7 relics.

Finally someone with some sense

[fusional]

good post. i agree. and it's refreshing to see that perspective from a more casual player. cheers

[IndigoDarkwolf]

As a player who started from a more casual background, I'll say that the treadmill effect can be daunting. When I join an MMO, hoping to play with friends, I find it very de-motivating if I learn that the only way to actually play with my friends is to grind my way through prerequisite content for months at a time. I thought WoW was especially bad at this, as several of my friends made efforts to keep alts that could play with me, but something would inevitably happen to start diverging the two characters, and after that it was basically a lost cause that left me soloing again. The cross-realm dungeon queue helped a lot once it was implemented, but by that point I was going to have to hit the level cap and then have to grind through raids that nobody wanted to play anymore.

It's like that game was designed to prevent friends from playing together, which seems strange for a game type defined by its social elements.

Totally an aside: Some people consider PL'ing an exploit. They complain about how they can raise characters very quickly on FFXI. I think it's a necessary pressure valve to allow new players into the game, to allow them to play the same content as their friends.

As for having progressively harder fights, I still don't think there's any harm in asking for ultra-difficult settings, but I think the rewards should be thought out very carefully to avoid the treadmill effect. I'm not advocating for nerfed rewards, or no rewards at all, I'm suggesting that unilaterally better gear is probably the wrong route. I'll advocate for side-grades, not up-grades. Or I'll advocate for something to offer different playstyle options without appreciably buffing the player's power level. Or even just alternate meshes and textures for existing equipment. There are many types of carrot.

Some players will insist on only playing the hardest difficulties, and refuse to play with anyone who doesn't feel up to the challenge. Good for them. I still think that's an elitist attitude I don't want to play with, anyways, so it's no loss to me if they leave, as long as they don't leave mid-fight.

[fusional]

I'm not advocating for nerfed rewards, or no rewards at all, I'm suggesting that unilaterally better gear is probably the wrong route. I'll advocate for side-grades, not up-grades. Or I'll advocate for something to offer different playstyle options without appreciably buffing the player's power level. Or even just alternate meshes and textures for existing equipment.

GW2 tries this. it doesn't work. they sold a couple million boxes and over half the population stopped logging in after just a couple months. why? because there's no reason to log in anymore. they did the content, they got the stuff, and they can't improve their characters any further outside of cosmetics. it's not enough.

if you want that for casual players, fine. it works perfectly for that demographic. but if you want an entire game built around that, and for every tier of gamer to have the same sort of rewards- your game will fail. horribly.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

So the only course of action for a successful MMO is to treadmill the gear rewards? Just flat out make content that is impossible until you have the right gear, and have that content drop the gear you need for the next content, which drops the gear you need for the content after that, in perpetuity?

[fusional]

So the only course of action for a successful MMO is to treadmill the gear rewards? Just flat out make content that is impossible until you have the right gear, and have that content drop the gear you need for the next content, which drops the gear you need for the content after that, in perpetuity?

i never said it's the only course, and i'm not sure where you got the impression that i did. i didn't even imply it. care to clue me in to your thought process there?

but anyway, yes. gear and content progression is what keeps people playing, and people playing keeps communities strong. love it or hate it, it's the foundation of EQ's success, FFXI's success after it, and WoW's success after that. that's not to say that they can't improve on the model, but without it people simply jump to end, beat it, then never log in again until a new patch or expansion.

do you think the most casual players should be entitled to the best gear in the game? do you think they should be entitled to experiencing every bit of content that the most hardcore players see?

should someone who works four hours per week get the same pay and the same perks as someone who works 80? should there not be any perks for the person who works 80 simply because there are people who don't?

[IndigoDarkwolf]

i never said it's the only course, and i'm not sure where you got the impression that i did. i didn't even imply it. care to clue me in to your thought process there?

Well, here's two examples, one each from your previous post and your response to me:

they did the content, they got the stuff, and they can't improve their characters any further outside of cosmetics

but anyway, yes. gear and content progression is what keeps people playing

The content should be challenging, that's a good thing. The content should take a while to complete, that's a good thing, too. So why does tiered gear have to be tied to content unlocks?

There are only two differences between using tiered gear as a gating mechanism to new content and using key items or rare consumables as a gating mechanism to new content:

• Tiered gear creates an illusory sense of skill gains by making it possible to attempt content without a realistic possibility of completing it. When you do complete the content, it was because your gear was better, not you.
• Tiered gear leads to a power treadmill which excludes players from joining their friends until they have completed every shred of content between them.

I have nothing against quest arcs or storylines that take upwards of two months to complete. I agree that if content is too easy and completed too quickly, players will get bored and abandon the game.

I'm saying that, unless the ultimate motivation for players is gear that is unilaterally better than all gear before it, then the better solution for all players is to use a different gating mechanism. Using a different gating mechanism, however, means re-evaluating the reward mechanism, or else new content will be too easy on account of players' stats always going up.

If you're going to say that I'm on the wrong side of the conversation because I want players to be able to attempt an expansion's new content - to join their friends and have the opportunity to spend a few months figuring out how to defeat the new content, even if they never do as a result of time, money, skill, or other constraints - and to do so without having to first spend months of time catching up on previous content just to meet gear tier requirements or leeching while their friends re-grind the content for them, regardless of those new players' skill or potential, then we'll probably never see eye-to-eye on this issue. Stop reading, because nothing else I have to say will be of any interest to you.

If tiered gear is the only answer, that would actually be kind of depressing to me, because that would mean that MMOs are "solved" and the only route to success is to end up following the path of Dragonball Z. Just keep adding more power to the world until the subscriber numbers max out, then constantly scale back your development team to only cater to however many players are the most hardcore, until there's no longer enough players to keep the game afloat. Meanwhile, have the rest of your team work on your next MMO because people will just move to it, starting from level 0.

If content is a stronger motivator, then the question is how to gate the content appropriately so that it can't be completed too quickly. MacGuffins, disposable key items, bosses with puzzle aspects to their fight, etc. There are lots of ways to gate players, including sheer difficulty. This doesn't require a gear treadmill.

If challenge is a stronger motivator, then the question is how to make sure the content is challenging without a gear treadmill. Honestly, this seems like the easiest problem: Make the bosses' stat numbers bigger in relation to the players, and/or change their fight to favor the actions which required the most attention and fastest reactions from the players, that had the most opportunity to wipe the party in the event of a mistake. Van Darnus Hard, Garuda Hard, etc. This doesn't require a gear treadmill, either, in fact a gear treadmill negates whatever effort was spent here making a fight challenging, and all but ensures that the fight will eventually be trivial.

[Velhart]

So the only course of action for a successful MMO is to treadmill the gear rewards? Just flat out make content that is impossible until you have the right gear, and have that content drop the gear you need for the next content, which drops the gear you need for the content after that, in perpetuity?

MMO's all have one thing in common, and it is called "progression". The reason MMO's are even popular today is because it builds a concept of dangling something in your face that you must have. It is a feeling of empowerment, to be better than everyone else. The reason gear progression is the ideal choice in most situations is simply because it helps display that empowerment. It may sound silly, but the feeling of walking into town with the best gear on you feels a lot better than coming in with the same crap you wear all the time with a good record.

Even take FFXIV 1.xx for example, how good does it feel to walk in Ul'Dah with a full set of Darklight on you? Well, I wouldn't know because the damn pieces I want never dropped, but that is a topic of the past. Anyways, that feeling alone really is what keeps you going, that feeling of empowerment and accomplishment alone. Could it be reworked? Sure. What I ask is this: Why change what isn't broken or outdated? Why must we be original on this concept?

I agree with Yoshida that being "too unique" can be a real downfall of an MMO, it also is one of the reasons that FFXIV 1.xx was a failure. I am not saying to not bring unique concepts in an MMO, because the genre itself will never take that next step. At the same time however, you do have to bring that sense of familiarity in. The genre itself has gotten to a point that it has it's standards like a FPS or fighting game.

Lets put that other genre into perspective also. When you play an FPS, you expect that sense of familiarity don't you? What happens when you switch this around, do something unique that feels out of place of the genre? People get scared of it. Could it be a success? Sure. However, the best approach to any genre to me is simply, "Take what is good, and make it better.". WoW may of not been the first MMO, but it definitely created a standard in the genre like Street Fighter 2 did to fighting games.

Actually that is another genre you can take perspective on. Street Fighter 2 basically set the standard for 2D fighting games. You see successes like King of Fighters and Darkstalkers follow it. You know why they were a success also? Because they took the genre standard, and improved upon it to make it their own unique game without changing the standard.

That is how I feel about FFXIV 2.0, it takes the standard and improves upon it. What is one unique thing that it does that most MMO's do not? An Armory System. You will be surprised on how appealing this system is and why FFXI was a major success outside FF players alone. The thought of changing your job on the go sounds so great because you don't have to make 10+ alts to play everything, you have access to everything the game has to offer from one character alone.

Then you ask me, "Hey Vel, what does all this babbling have to do with my statement about gear?". Well, gear progression is an MMO standard. Like I said above, the feeling of empowerment is very powerful in an MMO and changing that around can potentially cause an issue of commitment. I played GW2 and had a blast with it, I got to the end and I felt like my options were, go PvP, or do dungeons. As a strong PvE player, I said to myself that I will do the dungeons. I play through them and they are "okay". Then I learn (please correct me if I am wrong), that gear you obtain in the game does not improve you much and kind of easy to get access to.

To me, it is something that set me apart from GW2. I am all for looking cool, but really, it diminishes that feeling of empowerment, which is what I need to depend on the PvP concept to give me. Which also made me realize that GW2 is more of PvP game than anything. Have they improved upon this? Can't say, I haven't been on the game for quite a while now.

Next argument is, "Make gear like FFXI/FFXIV". While I will not say this concept is bad at all, it is very meh also. I do not want to be fighting for the same piece of gear for over 7 years like I did in FFXI. I want to feel like my character battle wise has progressed in some form every day. I want something new to aim for in every major patch update. I look back in my FFXI days and I ask myself, "How did I put up with it?". Of course FFXI was more of an EQ game and that is how it was simply. I don't want to be wearing a Haubergeon or Kirin's Osode for 7 years, I don't want situational gear. I want a piece of gear that says, "This is obviously better than what you have on right now, toss that thing aside and wear me now!". Then when the new dungeon comes out, I want the next piece of gear to say, "This is obviously better than what you have on right now, toss that thing aside and wear me now!". It keeps the game fresh and make the goal not feel stale.

I have a Gae Bolg on my character. Do I want it to be the ultimate weapon for the rest of the game's career? No. I already want something better than it. I want a new goal to hit. You can slap a +1 on it for all I care, but I want a new goal every once in a while. I can't be satisfied with this one weapon for the rest of the game, it has to improve, or a weapon to surpass it.

TL;DR: So in short, I feel gear progression is genre standard that doesn't need to be tampered with. It can be improved, but it doesn't need to be altered.

As for difficulty in dungeons. Sure I am game for it, at the same time, you need to approach it well. The bosses can't simply be the same thing, just with more HP and attack power. It needs to do things that they wouldn't do in an easier mode, like new abilities or areas to fight them in. Needs to be different enough that you need to rework your strategy to overcome it.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

Wall of text

Cripes, I could spend an hour trying to pick that apart. Let me see if I can summarize the high notes:

• MMO progression is, always has been, will always be gear tiers.
• Gear tiers are also the dominant reward that players want; content, challenge, etc. are just gating mechanisms to gear tiers.
• Being different is bad. Any MMO that doesn't emulate WoW is doomed to failure.
• You liked GW2, except for the end-game content, but you left because you heard there wasn't tiered gear.
• You don't like PVP, but if you did you wouldn't want to play except with top-tier gear.
• You don't want to make decisions about gear, you just want better gear. Really, all you want is gear.

That about sum it up?

[Altena]

To be honest I agree with fusional.

The gear treadmill is pretty much a given in some respect. We are playing an overzealous game of "barbie doll dress up" truthfully. Why do you clear content? To obtain gear/get a stronger character. Why do you want to get a stronger character? To make it easier to clear content.. It's a cycle that keeps people logging in everyday, and there will always be a "top tier". Some will hit that top tier faster then others, and to keep them logging in and not quitting out of boredom, there needs to be a constant stream of content that is progressively more difficult.

If we roll back to that bell curve that Klive posted before :

Removing the difficulty down to the SD-1 (or even the Mean Score), you still have 50% of the playerbase at capped "completed content". It is fairly correct to say that X could indicate time spent, and Y could indicate the amount of players that have completed the content.. If you were to remove that higher difficulty, the players from 0 to 2 would be bored out of their brain with nothing to do. They have nothing to strive for, as the content that is available is already completed, causing them to lose interest and quit until next patch.

If you were to keep this difficulty however, the players that are sitting at -2 (most likely mules/alternate accounts/players that never login) up to 0 will still be around as they have reasons to login, however with this higher difficulty setting, the players sitting around 0-2 have some content to do as well.

So truthfully the most profitable way to hold a larger community is to introduce an adjustable difficulty, which will keep players of all skill levels in the game. You remove that "harder" difficulty setting and suddenly the top tier becomes non-exclusive, easy to obtain, and equates to a boring & unmotivating game.

Unfortunately a lot of "casual" players seem to have a competitive nature and want to "have the best stuff" but I am sorry, if you want that stuff you do need to actually play the game and defeat the content. Ideally new content should be released the moment the "world first" group run out of things to strive for. If you can't keep up with this - consider yourself lucky that you have a lot of things to play after all it is a game.

*edit*

In addition - I hate comparing games but quite simply look at the state that FFXI is currently in. If you are not informed on the current state then you should spend 5 mins on FFXIAH.com and hunt around.
If you don't have 3-10 "legendary" weapons of any kind then you are pretty much a brand new player.
If you don't have all your battle jobs at level 99, guess what.. Yep you signed up last week.

I quit FFXI because I found myself logging in every day, walking around Jeuno (FFXI's Ul'dah) talking to a few friends and logging out. I considered myself once more a "regular" player and yet there was no content that hadn't already been done. I also saw a lot of "hardcore" players quit once the content dried up as well, as a game is boring when there is nothing difficult to do. It becomes a dull, boring grind, with no challenge and turns into an autopilot game that you play but don't truly enjoy.