"You Will Die" Difficulty... Can I Have It?

[Yrusama]

Personally I think Yoshi-P and the team are a little sadistic when they make bosses. Yoshi-P seemed disappointed that we killed Garuda too fast, and I can picture him wringing his hands every time a boss is released, saying "THIS one will get them. They'll NEVER beat this one... Mwahahahahaha!"

As others have sad, adding greater difficulties for these fights is a matter of popular demand. Just because one team is bored of the content doesn't mean that the whole endgame player base will be.

So basically an Area where you aren't meant to be that has monsters that you aren't likely to kill?
I'm sure there will be areas like that, like in 1.0, that are meant to be used later.
As to if they would drop anything worthwhile, *shrugs*

I reeeeaaally hope they implement those "forbidden spots". I'm sure by now you're all sick of my Gelmorra Ruins sig. Even after they made it easier, that place was still pretty tough to reach without dying, and even if there wasn't a reward for it I felt a little cooler for making the trip solo.

[Stephen]

The key word here is optional guys - people are always so quick to jump in and nay-say because they feel that the particular thing being discussed doesn't sound as though something they would enjoy.

Something optional and as simple as this would only require a bump in the mobs level/speed so it wouldn't waste any of Yoshi and his teams time so there isn't really any reason to say no to something like this.

But .... to the OP - I would totally be up for things like this, always good to experience new challenges / have things to tide you over whilst waiting for fresh content.

[Kinseykinz]

The key word here is optional guys - people are always so quick to jump in and nay-say because they feel that the particular thing being discussed doesn't sound as though something they would enjoy.

Something optional and as simple as this would only require a bump in the mobs level/speed so it wouldn't waste any of Yoshi and his teams time so there isn't really any reason to say no to something like this.

Yes, it is 'Optional' but the reality is, that that optional content will end up tearing the community further apart and causing undo headaches...because 'if you were a real player you'd have beat that battle on EXTREEEME' will be the epeen sentence people hear all the time. At the end of the day, we will as a community consider the battle to be 'the Extreme' version, not the 'Normal'. But, unless you have a dedicated static/group you do everything with AND play together often (like 4-5+nights a week), you stand little chance of being able to clear this, regardless of your actual skill.

Besides, this is an MMO...overtime battles that once were "epic/hardmode/dude I can't believe we beat him", get easier. This happens either because level cap is raised, players get better gears/abilities/exploits are found/many in the community have clear and are now able to focus on getting 1 person at a time their clear/ or the developers gradually ease the battle as the release newer content. It is far smarter overall to allow the community to ALL beat the same version of a battle for the same quest, than tier content.

For example: Lets remember version 1.0's Ifrit Battle(s) as they were semi-ish tiered.

Ifrit level 25 and Ifrit 'Normal' were both released in the same patch. At the time they were released, we were still in the middle of the 'battle system reforms' and did not have jobs. Even then, Ifrit level 25 was so very easy that very few of us even talk about it. Heck, it is possible to kill him before the person who started the quest can finish watching the CS's.

But the 'Normal' Iffy battle back then, was a decent challenge. MP conservation was an issue, Survival was hard without Sentinel it required some actual player skill, luck with lag and teamwork. But, as the game evolved, with us getting the more refined battle system, jobs, better gears etc. Ifrit 'Normal' became fairly easy for many in the community.

Now that we actually had a battle system and jobs, SE could introduce the Iffy battle they originally intended for us to have..."Iffy Extreme" (due to the lack of jobs, and battle system this would have been an impossible battle back at Ifrit's original patch release) Very few have cleared him at this point or have even gained access, but we ALL talk about it. And now, 'Ifrit Hardmode is now considered the battle you need to clear to be 'Elite'.

Sliders were never needed to allow the community to clear Ifrit though. Overtime and though in game changes, we all get better at the content in the game. Someday, Iffy Hardmode will be considered 'fairly easy' to the community just like 'Normal' mode seems now. (unless SE keeps updating him of course).

Besides, 'hardmode' sliders are really just a cheap way of re-using existing content over and over. "Hey guys we just beat Iffy Easy-mode. Lets try Normal...cool beat that, lets try Hard...beat that....lets do extreeme..." Instead of 'Woot we beat Ifrit! Lets go work on clearing Garuda!'

[fusional]

But, unless you have a dedicated static/group you do everything with AND play together often (like 4-5+nights a week), you stand little chance of being able to clear this, regardless of your actual skill.

which may be true for NAs, but i've never understood why it *is* true when the JP community has no problem pugging the stuff all the time. and trust me- it's not due to any skill gap.

Besides, 'hardmode' sliders are really just a cheap way of re-using existing content over and over. "Hey guys we just beat Iffy Easy-mode. Lets try Normal...cool beat that, lets try Hard...beat that....lets do extreeme..." Instead of 'Woot we beat Ifrit! Lets go work on clearing Garuda!'

ehhh. yes and no. in THAT GAME WHICH SHALL NOT BE MENTIONED, hardmodes almost categorically changed how fights worked, to the extent that if you were working on the hardmode you were essentially learning an almost entirely new fight. yeah the boss is the same, and it's in the same zone, but the behavior was very different, the strategy was very different and the loot was either different or upgraded versions of the normal loot.

if all they're doing is increasing HP/defense/regen/attack and making environmental hazards cover more ground or hit harder, then it is a bit gimmicky and definitely qualifies as recycling content. but it can absolutely be done right, where you're only fighting the same boss in name alone.

[Kinseykinz]

ehhh. yes and no. in THAT GAME WHICH SHALL NOT BE MENTIONED, hardmodes almost categorically changed how fights worked, to the extent that if you were working on the hardmode you were essentially learning an almost entirely new fight. yeah the boss is the same, and it's in the same zone, but the behavior was very different, the strategy was very different and the loot was either different or upgraded versions of the normal loot.

if all they're doing is increasing HP/defense/regen/attack and making environmental hazards cover more ground or hit harder, then it is a bit gimmicky and definitely qualifies as recycling content. but it can absolutely be done right, where you're only fighting the same boss in name alone.

I meant it more along the lines you're discribing

Beat easy version. Work on new strategy/clear for normal version. Beat normal... start working on strategy and clear of hard...etc. sorry for the lack of clarity. My bigger point is that I'd prefer the battle to just be 'hardmode' from the beginning, no difficulity sliders needed. I'd rather they add a variety of content across all skill levels than fewer actual things to do, but more ways to basically beat the same content.

As to the PUGS, I honestly think JA's are more selective in who they PUG with than NA's and are willing to spend more time building a party than we are...that and they stick in the PUG much longer, agree to meet back again if making progress etc. We aren't typically as proactive and patient. Don't take this as facts...just what I've noticed since playing

[fusional]

I meant it more along the lines you're discribing

Beat easy version. Work on new strategy/clear for normal version. Beat normal... start working on strategy and clear of hard...etc. sorry for the lack of clarity. My bigger point is that I'd prefer the battle to just be 'hardmode' from the beginning, no difficulity sliders needed. I'd rather they add a variety of content across all skill levels than fewer actual things to do, but more ways to basically beat the same content.

understood.

i think it depends a lot on the progression of endgame, and just how many options there are. another thing about WoW to consider is that there were 25 man raids, and it took a while to totally gear up everyone in your guild. as with any MMO, then, you were stuck farming the same stuff for quite a while until everyone was properly geared, but some players outgeared others.

what was to keep them from just getting sick of the grind and not logging in again until a new expansion?

hardmodes were the answer. they could revisit the content, effectively learn a new fight with a fresh challenge, and stay interested a bit longer while the rest of their guild caught up. and there were generally perks to go along with it (higher item level gear, new trinkets, etc)

it's a tough line to walk, sure. people get tired of the grind, the endless gear treadmill, and developers of new MMOs have tried to take some of the grind away and streamline the process. but as we can see, the games which are retaining subscribers are the ones that have kept to the treadmill tradition, and the new games trying to revolutionize this fade quickly.

(or in some instances they still have the traditional grind, but not enough stuff to grind for)

so on one hand, i don't want content to be recycled. i don't want to get sick of it. i don't want to feel like i'm running in place for ages. but on the other hand i don't want to suffer from "been there, done that" after just a few short months, either.

[Altena]

As to the PUGS, I honestly think JA's are more selective in who they PUG with than NA's and are willing to spend more time building a party than we are...that and they stick in the PUG much longer, agree to meet back again if making progress etc. We aren't typically as proactive and patient. Don't take this as facts...just what I've noticed since playing

100% agreed with this Kinsey !

I am in Australia so my time zone is practically the same as JP's. I have found from my experience that they are a lot more reluctant to party with an EN player (potentially due to the language barrier, but to be honest I think it has a lot to do with the way some EN players treat them). I however was lucky enough to party with a particular JP group that were a little more open to EN players and they were quite selective, polite, and very different to my EN experiences

They had a much higher tolerance level, more persistence and they did indeed agree to continue at a later date.

[Stephen]

Yes, it is 'Optional' but the reality is, that that optional content will end up tearing the community further apart and causing undo headaches...because 'if you were a real player you'd have beat that battle on EXTREEEME' will be the epeen sentence people hear all the time. At the end of the day, we will as a community consider the battle to be 'the Extreme' version, not the 'Normal'. But, unless you have a dedicated static/group you do everything with AND play together often (like 4-5+nights a week), you stand little chance of being able to clear this, regardless of your actual skill.

Besides, this is an MMO...overtime battles that once were "epic/hardmode/dude I can't believe we beat him", get easier. This happens either because level cap is raised, players get better gears/abilities/exploits are found/many in the community have clear and are now able to focus on getting 1 person at a time their clear/ or the developers gradually ease the battle as the release newer content. It is far smarter overall to allow the community to ALL beat the same version of a battle for the same quest, than tier content.

For example: Lets remember version 1.0's Ifrit Battle(s) as they were semi-ish tiered.

Ifrit level 25 and Ifrit 'Normal' were both released in the same patch. At the time they were released, we were still in the middle of the 'battle system reforms' and did not have jobs. Even then, Ifrit level 25 was so very easy that very few of us even talk about it. Heck, it is possible to kill him before the person who started the quest can finish watching the CS's.

But the 'Normal' Iffy battle back then, was a decent challenge. MP conservation was an issue, Survival was hard without Sentinel it required some actual player skill, luck with lag and teamwork. But, as the game evolved, with us getting the more refined battle system, jobs, better gears etc. Ifrit 'Normal' became fairly easy for many in the community.

Now that we actually had a battle system and jobs, SE could introduce the Iffy battle they originally intended for us to have..."Iffy Extreme" (due to the lack of jobs, and battle system this would have been an impossible battle back at Ifrit's original patch release) Very few have cleared him at this point or have even gained access, but we ALL talk about it. And now, 'Ifrit Hardmode is now considered the battle you need to clear to be 'Elite'.

Sliders were never needed to allow the community to clear Ifrit though. Overtime and though in game changes, we all get better at the content in the game. Someday, Iffy Hardmode will be considered 'fairly easy' to the community just like 'Normal' mode seems now. (unless SE keeps updating him of course).

Besides, 'hardmode' sliders are really just a cheap way of re-using existing content over and over. "Hey guys we just beat Iffy Easy-mode. Lets try Normal...cool beat that, lets try Hard...beat that....lets do extreeme..." Instead of 'Woot we beat Ifrit! Lets go work on clearing Garuda!'

Nah it wouldn't, I've never experienced people belittling others because they've beaten Garuda or NVD (Hard Mode).

If people want a challenge then give it to them and if they decide to talk sh** and show off just ignore 'em - they'll soon go stroke their epeen elsewhere.

[Solace]

It's hard to make the community agree on the "Separation" issue it rises.
But at the same time some people want more of a challenge.
Some people have better hand/eye coordination and patience.

To put it bluntly..
Some people have more skill than others.
I know some people get mad to think "I am not as good as that other person in this game".
But that's life.. There are simply some things that other people will be, yes. "Better" at than you..
I know, it's a crazy idea but hear me out..

It only leads to that logic, that those people need a harder challenge, to feel equally challenged and feel equally accomplished at the end..
There are a lot of people who don't want to spend 14 hours trying to beat Ifrit.
But there are a lot of people who do want to spend 14 hours trying to beat Ifrit.

The only separation it causes is inside the black hearts of people who call themselves "Elitesits".
People who would crap on you rather than help you, with a single thing.

Let me clarify..
Being Elite and being an Eliteist is NOT the same thing.
You earn Elite status.
Eliteists are just A-holes and always will be.
No matter of game difficulty will change that.
They are A-holes in life and are so therefore A-holes in game..
Just don't play with them.
You don't need them and you seriously don't need to be comparing yourselves to them.

It's like a nice girl trying to compare herself to Paris Hilton..
Why would she?
Paris is a whore...lol..

PS: Well said Kinsey.

[Altena]

There will be hard content that only a small number of the population will beat before the next update is released - and that's the way to it. I remember reading Yoshi answering a question in an interview or something about content (this was originally about 1.x but I don't believe his vision has changed all that much). He said something like "If the content/battle testers in the office can beat it, then it's too easy, as the players will beat it".. Something along those lines at least..

The ability to choose your difficulty is going to exist.
Yes the rewards will reflect the difficulty.
No the "casuals" players should not feel entitled to "rare" or "hard to obtain" items for beating easy content.
Yes items are "rare" because only a minority are able to obtain them.
It does motivate / encourage players (hardcore or casual) to continue playing the game, if there is something to do.

In between a patch, what did you do when you were done with the content? I know all I did was sit in Ul'dah helping random people with AF quests and what not.. It is boring when there is nothing to strive for. Some casual players expect that the regular players should be held back because these casual players are not able to achieve what regulars do.

To be honest, I see more casual players standing around in Ul'dah complaining about not completing content, when the "hardcore" players are out there doing it.

As a casual player: You can not expect to hold a regular player back, waiting for content to be released because they breezed through it, when you have barely even touched it. You cannot complete hard content or obtain the rarer gear because you do not earn it.

This "I am entitled to everything a player who plays 10x as much as me" mentality can shove it. I consider myself a "regular" player, there are many more hardcore then me - however if the content was any easier, even me as a "regular" player would be sitting on 7 relics.