Animation Lock: Why don't you like it?

[Shurrikhan]

I'm curious how some people thought it was immersion though.

I can punch and run, I can swing a sword and run, I can even shoot a bow and run (though honestly I can't hit shit then lol).

Animation lock (on everything) is NOT immersion, in fact its anti-immersion.

There are however some moves that would make sense you couldn't alter while in action, in particular leaps and jumps - if I dash jump into the air it really doesn't make sense I can turn around at the same time or alter course of the jump except for tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny amounts of mid air adjustment for landing.

With many of the actions you CAN move while performing, however, strength is lost without that good stance, and with the ones empowered through leg movement, the ability to react should something go wrong is mostly lost when already on the run.

What I'd hope to see is that eventually we will move as more than just capsules with floppy legs following us to mimic real movement. This would be especially important in terms of having the stanced (animation-lock-like) aesthetics without the unrealistic limitations of those locks. Even if left to mimicry, rather than using a point-plant system (essentially, working as if we had real legs), such a system could allow us to take another one or two steps more-or-less freely during the animation. This could then be used for additional effects, without feeling like a hack-and-slash or instant-spam game.

Let's say I'm a Samurai with a defensive ability that will automatically parry the next melee attack from a certain enemy while I have him targeted. If I move in around the enemy's next (auto-blocked) swing, it will bind as well (holding the enemy in a mutual parry, where neither of us can attack further until I chose to break the bind or he backs away or overpowers me). From there some of my abilities will be slightly modified. I can choose a regular heavy attack while stepping towards the outside (everyone in FFXIV was right-handed, so that'd be to the left) and overpower over his blade without risking being hit. I can use a light attack and step forward to cut under his blade while moving past him, again avoiding his attack.

These wouldn't have to be perfectly timed either. Simply hitting the movement key or keys as you start will be enough. They are procedural differences, not hack-and-slash action dynamics. And in the end, this is all you can really do in a true sparring match (to continue with the sword example). Condition-->Trigger-->Procedure-->Retrigger-->Procedure; considering everything in fine and frantic shades of action only gets you killed, no matter how good your reactions are.

To me this makes more sense than our 1.x combos.

[Shougun]

With many of the actions you CAN move while performing, however, strength is lost without that good stance, and with the ones empowered through leg movement, the ability to react should something go wrong is mostly lost when already on the run.

What I'd hope to see is that eventually we will move as more than just capsules with floppy legs following us to mimic real movement. This would be especially important in terms of having the stanced (animation-lock-like) aesthetics without the unrealistic limitations of those locks. Even if left to mimicry, rather than using a point-plant system (essentially, working as if we had real legs), such a system could allow us to take another one or two steps more-or-less freely during the animation. This could then be used for additional effects, without feeling like a hack-and-slash or instant-spam game.

Let's say I'm a Samurai with a defensive ability that will automatically parry the next melee attack from a certain enemy while I have him targeted. If I move in around the enemy's next (auto-blocked) swing, it will bind as well (holding the enemy in a mutual parry, where neither of us can attack further until I chose to break the bind or he backs away or overpowers me). From there some of my abilities will be slightly modified. I can choose a regular heavy attack while stepping towards the outside (everyone in FFXIV was right-handed, so that'd be to the left) and overpower over his blade without risking being hit. I can use a light attack and step forward to cut under his blade while moving past him, again avoiding his attack.

These wouldn't have to be perfectly timed either. Simply hitting the movement key or keys as you start will be enough. They are procedural differences, not hack-and-slash action dynamics. And in the end, this is all you can really do in a true sparring match (to continue with the sword example). Condition-->Trigger-->Procedure-->Retrigger-->Procedure; considering everything in fine and frantic shades of action only gets you killed, no matter how good your reactions are.

To me this makes more sense than our 1.x combos.

Indeed optimal is a system which sometimes and partially restricts - I was trying to call it a weighted system because each action has a sense of momentum but its obviously more complex then just weights (like the in a duel example you have with locking swords).

Animation locking makes no sense (originated as a technical issue, because blending by hand was expensive and blending by computer was improbable), and no restrictions makes no sense*.. lol - Though I personally find FFXIV's locking so annoying I'd throw the baby out with the bath water in order to get rid of it. *Also in SE worlds their characters can have unrealistic physical attributes like jumping off peoples hands or arms, and sometimes just the air, so in a matter of world immersion no restrictions does make more sense, but that is a SE case... it wouldn't make sense in Dark Souls (which uses a weighted-ish system and heavier combat realism base, you can partially cancel animations and you can slightly modify trajectories of most things during action).

If they do the work to create a weighted / interactive animation system they might as well work further to an action based game, though I doubt they would or want to do that (hardcore action mmorpg - not that I would be aganist it, I think it would be pretty awesome).


Just to add to the why I hate locks ideas - When I start a 42 sword combo, I really cant see the logical argument why I couldnt stop at 32, why do I have to watch all 42 strokes "well because it is a part of the spell" .... "Isnt this the game where I'm supposed to be the character?" "Yeah" "Well then -I- want to stop at 32." lol

Not being able to control your character - bad immersion. Horrible bad bad immersion. Terrible shitty immersion. lol

Weighted or interactive animation systems are logical, but OP was talking about what FFXIV had, and what FFXIV had was a crappy unimmersive device. If someone wants to push a weighted system, where there is no real lock but only variables of control, be my guest.. :P

You should probably create another thread then, I've read a few people like you who arent for the old system but they are for a system. Like not being able to start in mid air and do 720's and moonwalks before landing lol.

[Zantetsuken]

I think perhaps what the game needs is more of a Dark Souls/Monster Hunter System with cancellation windows in each move (use the jump button perhaps).

Cancellation is a tried-and-true method that serves as a good compromise between the restrictions of full-locking and the absurdity of roaming around while performing a multihit WS.

Also, I suspect that the animation lock didn't cause half as many deaths in 1.0 as the LAG did. It was the murky combination of the two that made players blame the former over the latter.

[Shurrikhan]

Indeed optimal is a system which sometimes and partially restricts - I was trying to call it a weighted system because each action has a sense of momentum but its obviously more complex then just weights (like the in a duel example you have with locking swords).

Animation locking makes no sense (originated as a technical issue, because blending by hand was expensive and blending by computer was improbable), and no restrictions makes no sense*.. lol - Though I personally find FFXIV's locking so annoying I'd throw the baby out with the bath water in order to get rid of it. *Also in SE worlds their characters can have unrealistic physical attributes like jumping off peoples hands or arms, and sometimes just the air, so in a matter of world immersion no restrictions does make more sense, but that is a SE case... it wouldn't make sense in Dark Souls (which uses a weighted-ish system and heavier combat realism base, you can partially cancel animations and you can slightly modify trajectories of most things during action).

If they do the work to create a weighted / interactive animation system they might as well work further to an action based game, though I doubt they would or want to do that (hardcore action mmorpg - not that I would be aganist it, I think it would be pretty awesome).


Just to add to the why I hate locks ideas - When I start a 42 sword combo, I really cant see the logical argument why I couldnt stop at 32, why do I have to watch all 42 strokes "well because it is a part of the spell" .... "Isnt this the game where I'm supposed to be the character?" "Yeah" "Well then -I- want to stop at 32." lol

Not being able to control your character - bad immersion. Horrible bad bad immersion. Terrible shitty immersion. lol

Weighted or interactive animation systems are logical, but OP was talking about what FFXIV had, and what FFXIV had was a crappy unimmersive device. If someone wants to push a weighted system, where there is no real lock but only variables of control, be my guest.. :P

You should probably create another thread then, I've read a few people like you who arent for the old system but they are for a system. Like not being able to start in mid air and do 720's and moonwalks before landing lol.

You up for making the thread, Shougun? I think I have a bad reputation when it comes to starting threads. I'll try to perfect some examples and post them when I can. Might want to leave a couple reserved blocks as well, for your 'best in thread' replies.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Animation lock was absolute shit, I don't even understand how anyone could defend it's usefulness. Immersion is not an excuse for a poor design that inhibits players so greatly. You can not have a battle that requires mobility with very quick reaction times and then have players locked into animations for 3 seconds. It's absolutely asinine.

The arguments that it made for tactical gameplay are completely wrong and simply white knighting a terrible terrible terrible system. The only way you could possibly defend it, is if the battle was a stationary battle and moving was not required but timing of attacks was. This is not how the game was designed however and so the animation lock system was absolute garbage and that is why we won't be seeing it in ARR. Animation lock + Mobility Fights = Full retard Battle System.

It's gone for good and the game is 100% better because of it.

^^ I 100% agree with this post.

I must also LOL at people who insist that the only reason people didn't like animation lock in this game was because of the Ifrit fight. Ifrit was easy sauce. Most of the people who did the fight really didn't have any problems with it, animation lock and all. I, personally, don't like animation lock because I believe it to be an extremely stupid mechanic. And Shougun is right as well. It doesn't help immersion in the slightest, so that is also a stupid argument.

I also have to LOL at people who insist that without animation lock, people will just be able to constantly spam their biggest abilities over and over while moving. Of course, devs COULD do what other devs have done in games like these and program it so when you MOVE while casting such an animation, the casting is cancelled. (GASP) The very idea!

No, that's crazy talk! Devs will simply make big moves overpowered by cancelling out animation lock. Because Yoshi doesn't know what the heck he's doing, right?

lol Really, animation lock is a bad mechanic, and I'm glad to see the devs of this game understand that and are pulling the plug on it. Truth be told, it should have been dead a long time ago.

[Elexia]

^^ I 100% agree with this post.

I must also LOL at people who insist that the only reason people didn't like animation lock in this game was because of the Ifrit fight.

You do realize...99% of the complaint about animation lock was the Ifrit Fights, right? You rarely heard people complain about it in Moogle Fight (even easier than Ifrit) and Garuda Fight (it can screw you but it was already a decent challenging fight.)

Realistically, people only used it as an excuse when they screw up on such an easy fight like Ifrit Hard otherwise it affected everything, but people only complained when it came to Ifrit because they needed an excuse, just like how they say Japanese players can mess up in Ifrit fights and still do better, which SE has stated otherwise and anyone who actually played from Japan can atest to the fact there's still a lot of issues as well with XIV. Animation lock and "lag" people still also confuse with graphical lag, which did affect your performance as well too. If you've ever cranked up the graphics past what your PC can handle and noticed how certain things like skills firing get delayed or your S/R goes crazy, that should clue you into that it's not just one source the issues, which SE has stated numerous times as well.

They simply chose using an engine for this game that wasn't designed for MMOs, which is why they built XI's from scratch from what I recall. Notice how building XIV's from scratch rectified a lot of other issues that's unrelated to AL.

[Kikosho]

A mage can cast spells from afar a melee has to be next to the boss to hit it. Probably why one of the reasons they have to stand still when they cast. In PvP if you can move and cast Vs any melee you could kite the melee the whole time while damaging him.

And likewise, if a melee can do a skill and move, as a mage, you'd never get a way from him.

Animation lock was absolute shit, I don't even understand how anyone could defend it's usefulness. Immersion is not an excuse for a poor design that inhibits players so greatly. You can not have a battle that requires mobility with very quick reaction times and then have players locked into animations for 3 seconds. It's absolutely asinine.

The arguments that it made for tactical gameplay are completely wrong and simply white knighting a terrible terrible terrible system. The only way you could possibly defend it, is if the battle was a stationary battle and moving was not required but timing of attacks was. This is not how the game was designed however and so the animation lock system was absolute garbage and that is why we won't be seeing it in ARR. Animation lock + Mobility Fights = Full retard Battle System.

It's gone for good and the game is 100% better because of it.

Except there are plenty of instances in other games where your character is briefly locked in place while he performs a move -and- it requires dodging of attacks by the enemy. It's like you guys have never played a video game outside of RPGs. Also, contrary to what you want to believe, Ifrit -was- designed where timing of attacks was important.

Yes, the animation locks in FFXIV were dumb but it was mainly because SE decided to make you summon a GF whenever you decided to perform a skill not to mention they provided no way for you cancel or speed up the animation. Not to mention animation locks were there for everything when it could have done away with it, such as for buffs.

I honestly don't care that ani locks are gone, just a new system to get used to and new mechanics to abuse.

[nokinator]

RAAAAAAAR!!!

[Klefth]

No matter how good of a job they do with animation blending, stuff like Spirits Within, Ring of Talons, Doom Spike, Goring Blade or any PGL/MNK WS will make absolutely no sense at all. Seriously, I'd love to see how they'd manage to do that just with Spirits Within and Doom Spike. I wanna see those two while running backwards, because I can't even imagine how that would work at all.

And that's just from an aesthetic point of view. Being able to do any move at all while moving around without a care in the world will be seriously broken. You can't just dodge and perform your most powerful move at the same time, that's pretty ridiculous.

And while they're at it, why don't they remove casting times for any sort of spells altogether? That would certainly make everything much faster and fun!

there is a difference between a gameplay mechanic which feels like a bug (like animation lock), because it did not work accuratley, especially for mages. and a gameplay style.

have you seen what happened to casters in GW2 or TERA doing that? they spam 1 spell over and over every second and almost doing no damage.

i say it shouldnt become one of those action hack and spam games out of there, because it is still a final fantasy game. your matter of taste is badly just saying.

Wow... I guess some people are just really, really dense... I guess next time I decide to be sarcastic, no matter how painfully obvious it is, I'll have to throw something like [SARCASM]this[/SARCASM] in between...

Of course I didn't mean that... your ideas regarding animation look and it's removal sound just as crazy to me as that. I play melee classes mainly, and the removal of animation lock would make it just way too simple. It'd be ridiculous and broken.

For casting and buff animations, it's alright, I agree that it should be removed for that, but removing it from weaponskills, especially the stronger ones, is ridiculous.

[Firon]

I think a lot of people are confusing attack animation with animation lock. People complaints were not about standing still to use chaos thrust it was the fact after the animation finished you were bound for 1-2 secs which is pretty dumb. Hell even XI did not lock you down after every ws or spell.

Look at the Coincounter fight The fight its self is simple but tanks can hardly do anything in that fight cause you don't want to be locked down cause you wanted to use a self buff.