If I wanted WoW...

[gifthorse]

Aggro indicators: Nah, plenty of games have aggro indicators, and not every mob that is aggressive looks aggressive.(vultures, roselets)

Plenty of games are total crap. You would think FFXIV would have enough taste to see that a heinous red symbol is a poor substitute for organic mob behaviours. You can create warning signals without throwing them in the players' face.

Raids:I think raids were already planned from the start judging by the NMs they released, but almost everyone has raids these days, I guess you could bulk the norm and put in something else(like uh....) but there's definitely a consumer base for raiding.

Instanced dungeons: I understand they break immersion, but so is fighting another group for the first attack on this ancient and terrible evil you're supposed to be vanquishing, then watching them vanquish it, then waiting for this ancient and terrible evil to respawn.

Yeah, I'm just saying: they were quick to start with the "raids" and "instanced dungeons" when they never mentioned such things earlier, likely in a bid to appeal to what they perceive as the WoW audience.

Meaningless quests: ok yeah, meaningless quests suck.

Exclamation points: I could talk to every npc in the city once and if they have a quest that is above my rank I would never know unless i went and talked to them after every level, sure some quests can be hidden but it'd be less annoying if there was a REASON for them to be hidden.

True, but like the aggro-indicator mentioned earlier, aren't there more organic and natural ways to achieve the same effect? For example, instead of an exlamation mark, an NPC could call out to you or gesture with beckoning hands. An exclamation mark is just lazy. But I guess SE is pretty notorious in that regard.

Auto attack: I never liked auto attack but I can see the reasoning behind it.

Me too: poor reasoning.

[Nephera]

Plenty of games are total crap. You would think FFXIV would have enough taste to see that a heinous red symbol is a poor substitute for organic mob behaviours. You can create warning signals without throwing them in the players face.

Whoa plenty of these crap games are in a better financial situation and have better reviews than XIV right now, we gotta be pragmatic man. The problem with gestures is that not every monster would turn and threaten you but not actually attack, especially thinking humanoid mobs who's motivations you do not exactly know.

Yeah, I'm just saying: they were quick to start with the "raids" and "instanced dungeons" when they never mentioned such things earlier, likely in a bid to appeal to what they perceive as the WoW audience.

I think its more of an mmo audience thing, the term certainly predates WoW and the oldest raid boss i can remember (probably not the oldest) was legion in dark age of camelot.

True, but like the aggro-indicator mentioned earlier, aren't there more organic and natural ways to achieve the same effect? For example, instead of an exlamation mark, an NPC could call out to you or gesture with beckoning hands. An exclamation mark is just lazy. But I guess SE is pretty notorious in that regard.

I suppose they could have had gestures, but since very little is client side those npcs might just end up waving to everybody passing by all the time. I think it would have been better if they had used something a little more eloquent than an exclamation mark that served the same purpose. Much like i think the aggro icon should look better than something that was done in five minutes using the star and gradient tools.

Me too: poor reasoning.

Well you have to ask would the game really be that much better if you kept pressing 1 vs toggling something on that basically pressed 1 for you? [assuming they implement it like this]

I'll have to defer to champions online for this one.

In CO you get an energy builder power, basically an auto attack toggle. When this power hits an enemy it builds energy (What is tantamount to tp), and you use this energy to execute the rest of your attacks save a few special utility attacks. The system is REALLY similar to what we have at the moment but with automatic attacks and it does its job fairly well and keeps the game running at a fast pace.

[gifthorse]

Whoa plenty of these crap games are in a better financial situation and have better reviews than XIV right now, we gotta be pragmatic man. The problem with gestures is that not every monster would turn and threaten you but not actually attack, especially thinking humanoid mobs who's motivations you do not exactly know.

Neither would they summon a floating red symbol above their face to advertise it.

I think its more of an mmo audience thing, the term certainly predates WoW and the oldest raid boss i can remember (probably not the oldest) was legion in dark age of camelot.

They seem to have adopted a strategy of emulating rather than inventing though. While some small changes to their vocabulary are expected (using 'raid' to denote a certain type of content, using 'patch' as opposed to version update) , they do give off a distinct impression of trying too hard to copy things. They've said a thousand times that "people expected certain things in our game that are now industry standard" etc etc., so it's obvious they would then try and introduce some "industry standards" into the game. But to me it seems like SE has just latched onto this idea and basically pandered to any seemingly stupid and detrimental demands people have made, be they aggro indicators or exclamation mark quests. By trying so hard to seem in-touch with the MMO industry, they lost touch with their game and its good features.

I suppose they could have had gestures, but since very little is client side those npcs might just end up waving to everybody passing by all the time.

Um, if the game can load in an icon without trouble, it can load in an animation. And you know it.

Well you have to ask would the game really be that much better if you kept pressing 1 vs toggling something on that basically pressed 1 for you? [assuming they implement it like this]

I'll have to defer to champions online for this one.

Spamming actions is a crappy way to make a battle system, and that's the only reason people want auto-attack: because it's the lesser of two evils. Little do they know, auto-attack is still crap in the end.

[Nephera]

Um, if the game can load in an icon without trouble, it can load in an animation. And you know it.

No i meant waving at every single person on the street would look uh..bad, some npcs are in somewhat high traffic areas.

Though spamming the server for requests for an animation from that npc could also go badly.

They seem to have adopted a strategy of emulating rather than inventing though. While some small changes to their vocabulary are expected (using 'raid' to denote a certain type of content, using 'patch' as opposed to version update) , they do give off a distinct impression of trying too hard to copy things. They've said a thousand times that "people expected certain things in our game that are now industry standard" etc etc., so it's obvious they would then try and introduce some "industry standards" into the game. But to me it seems like SE has just latched onto this idea and basically pandered to any seemingly stupid and detrimental demands people have made, be they aggro indicators or exclamation mark quests. By trying so hard to seem in-touch with the MMO industry, they lost touch with their game and its good features.

mmm, I can't say I know exactly whats going on at square, but I doubt they're eschewing game theory to cater to demands, I honestly hope they have sound logic behind their decisions. One thing you have to keep in mind is that they came across as thinking this game would be a golden goose when it went live, going so far as to laugh when asked questions about features like jumping or auction houses and saying no one would feel the need for these features, it really felt like they were out of touch all the way through and so they're compensating quite a bit to make it clear that they made a mistake that they want to correct.

But lets not forget that copycatting is symptomatic of the genre.

The MMO industry is filled with features that are copied from other games with their own spin on them for a number of reasons(Heroic opportunities> Fellowship Manuevers> Battle Regimens). Being different can be punished and rewarded, so the typical choice is to go "How can we fit this framework but put as much of our own into it as possible"(or in rift's case: ok lets take the best of what everyone else did and also put in massive zone wide public quests). Yes XIV is taking some things from the basic frameworks of other MMOs, but if its really going to be a complete copy has yet to be seen. Heck it COULD end up being a complete copy but we'll have to wait till they announce more things to see if thats true.

Edit: WOW THATS A LOT OF TEXT TLDR: they gotta make some concessions to the genre or really really go all the way, and its much safer to make the concessions and innovate in that framework as much as possible.

[gifthorse]

No i meant waving at every single person on the street would look uh..bad, some npcs are in somewhat high traffic areas.

Though spamming the server for requests for an animation from that npc could also go badly.

Well, you see the NPC's exlamation bubble as you pass it by right? By that token, what's stopping the client from having the NPC perform an animation instead? (performing the animation to YOU and you alone, and not to anyone else). When you talk to an NPC and it looks at you, do you think everyone around you sees the NPC look at you? Of course they don't, it's client-side.

mmm, I can't say I know exactly whats going on at square, but I doubt they're eschewing game theory to cater to demands, I honestly hope they have sound logic behind their decisions. One thing you have to keep in mind is that they came across as thinking this game would be a golden goose when it went live, going so far as to laugh when asked questions about features like jumping or auction houses and saying no one would feel the need for these features, it really felt like they were out of touch all the way through and so they're compensating quite a bit to make it clear that they made a mistake that they want to correct.

I understand that change is needed, but they are way over-compensating. Or it seems like it.

But lets not forget that copycatting is symptomatic of the genre.

The MMO industry is filled with features that are copied from other games with their own spin on them for a number of reasons(Heroic opportunities> Fellowship Manuevers> Battle Regimens). Being different can be punished and rewarded, so the typical choice is to go "How can we fit this framework but put as much of our own into it as possible"(or in rift's case: ok lets take the best of what everyone else did and also put in massive zone wide public quests). Yes XIV is taking some things from the basic frameworks of other MMOs, but if its really going to be a complete copy has yet to be seen. Heck it COULD end up being a complete copy but we'll have to wait till they announce more things to see if thats true.

Edit: WOW THATS A LOT OF TEXT TLDR: they gotta make some concessions to the genre or really really go all the way, and its much safer to make the concessions and innovate in that framework as much as possible.

SE was very misguided when they developed FFXIV, and from the looks of things, they are just as misguided now, only in the opposite way. Earlier, they refused to listen to anyone, now it's like they'll listen to just about anybody.

Only a fool would say FFXIV is/was perfect. But there's change for the better, and then there's change for the worse. And SE seems intent upon changing things for the latter.

Being stubborn and obstinate didn't work for SE, so now they're taking the reverse approach. Their introverted development policy essentially hurt them badly. But their new policy is just as self mutilating. If they make too many concessions and appeal to every little demand, they run the risk of destroying the innovations they have already made headway with.