NINJA...New Pet Class!

[Shurrikhan]

No. PLD is focused at being the best tank- if he is not the best tank then he needs to be good at something else.

If you want to make PLD be a little bit more beefier in the dps department then fine - but right now he sucks at everything but tanking, and to suggest someone to be better then him at that would be very poor balancing.

So either ensure other classes cant supplant PLD in his sole purpose or buff him in another purpose and it doesnt matter (because then he has more then one purpose).

Want to add cecil in FF4 would be perfect reason to buff PLD damage, cecil was a beast.. lol

(And giving him a hybrid purpose would let trade off scenarios be balanced - but being mono purposed no trade off situation would be balanced)

This. While I agree with fusional that we may be a bit "job Idea" obsessed--or at least, I certainly am--a bit more love on the developer's part of the diversity in the "idea" of a class definitely seems a better solution than every player being quicker to turn to the new best-of-patch situational class-stack.

I don't see why Paladins can't follow paths other than the sword-and-holy-board defender. I would like that a really good Ninja who has adapted his character to be the absolute best at certain types of tanking could outdo a paladin in those specific instances. On the same token, I don't see why a Paladin can't make one hell of a hard-line push offense with key bonuses usable against undead, empowering from light elements and additional damage vs. dark element enemies, etc (without being situation-locked to those types).

Any balancing tension from patch to patch comes first from the rigidity given to the jobs by their original development, even if player biases may ingrain these distinctions later. In either case, this "take it or leave it" mentality is not ideal (this job will work for this and never for that, so just level a Warrior, BLM, and MNK already). I don't know why people are oft to treat it like the bread and butter of (online gaming) life, when there are choices other than grain for this already optional meal. Better design is possible.

[Duelle]

I don't see why Paladins can't follow paths other than the sword-and-holy-board defender.

I would have agreed to this--if we had no armoury system and instead did advanced class progression for each job. You can then justify PLD having a tank skill set and DPS skill set. That ship already sailed, though.

Any balancing tension from patch to patch comes first from the rigidity given to the jobs by their original development, even if player biases may ingrain these distinctions later. In either case, this "take it or leave it" mentality is not ideal (this job will work for this and never for that, so just level a Warrior, BLM, and MNK already).

The mentality is there because people can change jobs, which is the easy way out without dealing with the problem. It's one of the downsides of open choice.

[stanleyyoung]

This. While I agree with fusional that we may be a bit "job Idea" obsessed--or at least, I certainly am--a bit more love on the developer's part of the diversity in the "idea" of a class definitely seems a better solution than every player being quicker to turn to the new best-of-patch situational class-stack.

I don't see why Paladins can't follow paths other than the sword-and-holy-board defender. I would like that a really good Ninja who has adapted his character to be the absolute best at certain types of tanking could outdo a paladin in those specific instances. On the same token, I don't see why a Paladin can't make one hell of a hard-line push offense with key bonuses usable against undead, empowering from light elements and additional damage vs. dark element enemies, etc (without being situation-locked to those types).

Any balancing tension from patch to patch comes first from the rigidity given to the jobs by their original development, even if player biases may ingrain these distinctions later. In either case, this "take it or leave it" mentality is not ideal (this job will work for this and never for that, so just level a Warrior, BLM, and MNK already). I don't know why people are oft to treat it like the bread and butter of (online gaming) life, when we there are choices other than grain for this already optional meal. Better design is possible.

Given that we have the class to job system for 14 jobs (even classes too a little bit) being able to take multiple paths will recreate the mess and problems that 1.0 had in the beginning before any revisions and changes. The time period when ppl said whats the difference between this and that & what really is the class "role". No one really could answer the question fully since we had so much freedom and customization that practically everything was interchangeable and nothing was unique.

Once we had the revisions and changes classes somewhat were better for solo then jobs and classes had the ability to be played differently with some customization. Jobs then were really designed to be played and used for even a more defined role then the class. i could see gladiator being able to take multiple paths since its a class and then can have a varying play style but if pld would have the same ability then the role it supposed/designed to play can change somewhat or would not be fulfilled.

Like i said before with mrd having rampage & berserk allowing it to tank then dd next, gladiator having the same thing would allow it to do the same. If SE decides to have 2 jobs per class then mrd would have the ability to tank/dd with rampage/berserk it could have warrior job to be designed to only tank the best in its way using rampage and lets say dark knight dd the best in its way using berserk.

i personally see what we have now with the class-job system is good groundwork its just that it needs to be worked on and finished so we can see the final complete product. knowing that i could/can play a said class two different ways is cool along with them being efficient in doing either task but also knowing more that the jobs that branches from them are the best at the role like none other is good too. Im eager to see how everything has changed class/job wise for 2.0 once beta hits to really see how much they have improved and how well balanced everything is.

[Shurrikhan]

Given that we have the class to job system for 14 jobs (even classes too a little bit) being able to take multiple paths will recreate the mess and problems that 1.0 had in the beginning before any revisions and changes. The time period when ppl said whats the difference between this and that & what really is the class "role". No one really could answer the question fully since we had so much freedom and customization that practically everything was interchangeable and nothing was unique.

Once we had the revisions and changes classes somewhat were better for solo then jobs and classes had the ability to be played differently with some customization. Jobs then were really designed to be played and used for even a more defined role then the class. i could see gladiator being able to take multiple paths since its a class and then can have a varying play style but if pld would have the same ability then the role it supposed/designed to play can change somewhat or would not be fulfilled.

Like i said before with mrd having rampage & berserk allowing it to tank then dd next, gladiator having the same thing would allow it to do the same. If SE decides to have 2 jobs per class then mrd would have the ability to tank/dd with rampage/berserk it could have warrior job to be designed to only tank the best in its way using rampage and lets say dark knight dd the best in its way using berserk.

i personally see what we have now with the class-job system is good groundwork its just that it needs to be worked on and finished so we can see the final complete product. knowing that i could/can play a said class two different ways is cool along with them being efficient in doing either task but also knowing more that the jobs that branches from them are the best at the role like none other is good too. Im eager to see how everything has changed class/job wise for 2.0 once beta hits to really see how much they have improved and how well balanced everything is.

I'm not saying that you'd need to have some sort of sub-set (or advanced job) of the Paladin job that takes a turn for the offensive, only that the fundamental components of the job should be such that it can play multiple roles given intelligent (not necessarily even "correct" per say) gearing.

Let's take this little example: a reflect ability and a cover ability (intercept an attack/spell). A presumably defensive ability now works potentially offensively, or at least outside a "tanking" role while also providing a supporting (defensive) element. If the CD for the reflect is shorter than the CD for the cover, then of course a true tank (or even a off-tank or snap-tank) would make better use of the ability, but unless it is heavily limited by one's defensive stats it can still work plenty well in both a non-tank party niche and non-tank gearing.

Additionally, I think the reason the class system of 1.0 left players feeling un-unique was the way the ability selection was handled. Had the difference in abilities been slightly improved upon, and ability swapping a bit less quick, it made us potentially unique machines of war, allowing us to focus on linear-cannon abilities, self-centered AoEs, fire abilities through both physical and magical sources, etc. But that does nothing to give substance to a class. In a way, that's from a very simple issue. Abilities then were not class-tied. They were class-gained, and from then on were mere floating selection choices. This would have been more apparent had the classes themselves had something unique, rather than being a level progression with a set of abilities to buy with experience. That said, post-reform changed relatively little in that point. Classes were cornered off from each other due more to the lack of physical level and some just having genuinely slower killing speeds than others than any real unique class mechanics until you were at least level 30 or so. Having an actual different feeling entirely within each different class would fix this issue, but that requires that a class be more than a bank of abilities, or at least that these abilities are highly adaptable.

In all honesty, I don't consider a class role as a unique identifying factor of a class. I don't expect a Dragoon to tank any more than I would expect a Paladin to main-heal, but I would think that it would at least have enough burst dps (for threat-stealing in this case) and mobility to make it a good kiter, and to me those features are what makes a Dragoon a Dragoon. As for Lancer, less specialized (but also lacking those unique features) than a Dragoon, I don't see why it couldn't potentially tank, if its range can be taken advantage of. Hold threat on the conical blasting boss and back off just before tp moves so the cone starts near your position, skipping over the closer melee, or just keep things behind the length of your spear, unable to attack you given the you and your party's stuns. Does this advantage make Lancer a tank? No. It makes it a melee with a long reach, and a primarily charging or tactile mindset (each half enjoyably diverse from the other).

If all that's possible in this class-job system, then I consider it good groundwork. Personally though, I still think that jobs ought to be more than solely the tip you put on the shaft of a class after having leveled it to make it finally effective. Jobs should be specialized variants that stem from one or more classes, and not just as an arbitrary 30/15 requirement check at that. If Dragoon should stem from a Pugilist, there really should be some feel that Pugilist captures about the "thrill of the fight" or "do or die" offensive evasion or the like that truly applies to what it is to be a Dragoon. A Paladin would certainly stem from Conjurer, but it's a bit painful when that stem only goes so far as "I have Cure" or "I have Sacred Prism". "Now, why does Conjurer have Cure?"

All that said, in most future class sets, I don't see jobs as being attainable from only one class either. Let's take Beastmaster for instance. Is there any reason why you can't fight alongside your pet with a sword or an axe or a bow rather than a whip? If you were doing absolutely none of the damage and you're pet all of it, then a whip might be reasonable, but then what's the class for it? And in the first place, why is the class actually needed except to fit a mostly makeshift system? [As I mentioned in Shougun's thread, I think "Tamer" has its place as a DoL class, with skinning and herding being additional parts of it.]

The same goes with Ninja. Is a Ninja really incapable of using a sword, an axe, a bow, or does he just use those weapons under a different combat focus than their base users?

Our liberal English-translated class titles already fit the most open-ended way to convey how the base classes function. It doesn't feel weird that a Marauder may carry a Fire spell with him, or a Lancer a Cure. And even more so with the original Japanese "spearman", "bowmen", "swordsman", "axeman", etc, there's a lot of ground each class can cover in terms of class-stemmed jobs. Luckily, that groundwork is already set. But taken as too strong a rule, or each class as nothing but a weapon and line of abilities meant only to be adapted into a job once in party play, it'll be interesting to see how SE will deal with mixed-stem jobs like Red Mage, Dark Knight, Corsairs, or Blue Mage that all use swords, should such jobs come into play.

[Duelle]

I'm not saying that you'd need to have some sort of sub-set (or advanced job) of the Paladin job that takes a turn for the offensive, only that the fundamental components of the job should be such that it can play multiple roles given intelligent (not necessarily even "correct" per say) gearing.

Considering the intent of the jobs is to be role-specific, this isn't really going to happen without some strict lines in terms of design. Even then, balance would be wonky because the intent of the jobs has been made clear by Yoshida.

In all honesty, I don't consider a class role as a unique identifying factor of a class.

Depends on the context. Final Fantasy jobs are for the most part one-trick ponies with the exception of hybrids like RDM. We can try to come up with progression paths for each job, but that doesn't mean anyone would take to them, much less want to see them in-game.

All that said, in most future class sets, I don't see jobs as being attainable from only one class either. Let's take Beastmaster for instance. Is there any reason why you can't fight alongside your pet with a sword or an axe or a bow rather than a whip?

Wouldn't really fit the job's aesthetic and motif. Axe can squeeze through using FFXI as precedent, but not the others. Even then, this butts heads with the armoury system.

But taken as too strong a rule, or each class as nothing but a weapon and line of abilities meant only to be adapted into a job once in party play, it'll be interesting to see how SE will deal with mixed-stem jobs like Red Mage, Dark Knight,

Rapiers on Fencer/Red Mage, Great Sword for Gladiator/Dark Knight makes the most sense to me.

Corsairs

The way the armoury system works, they could just have the pistol/hexagun as their main weapon, bypassing the need for swords.

Blue Mage

Considering FFVI's version of Blue Mage, I don't see why we should give them access to swords.

[Shurrikhan]

Rapiers on Fencer/Red Mage, Great Sword for Gladiator/Dark Knight makes the most sense to me.
The way the armoury system works, they could just have the pistol/hexagun as their main weapon, bypassing the need for swords.

I'm a Swordsman--I am thereby limited to arming swords?

I don't know. Practically, speaking, in the event that nothing is willing to change in the armory system, adding two-handed swords, rapiers, whips, and pistols would work. It just still seems like a rather slap-on solution, closer to mimicking chess pieces than being actual characters. Though, I guess that's the Tactics-lead point of jobs in the first place. Staying true to that really has very little to say about MMO character development ability. Choose the best gun for the task and learn how to shoot it. Done. That just doesn't feel very RPG to me. It feels like assembly and polish.

Edit: By "arming swords" I'm referring to the relatively broad spectrum of mid-level, hefty-ish one-handed blades often paired with bucklers, not an official "arming sword" (in the same specificity as say a broadsword).

[Duelle]

Practically, speaking, in the event that nothing is willing to change in the armory system, adding two-handed swords, rapiers, whips, and pistols would work. It just still seems like a rather slap-on solution, closer to mimicking chess pieces than being actual characters. Though, I guess that's the Tactics-led point of jobs in the first place. Staying true to that really has very little to say about MMO character development ability.

It's not meant to be, as here and in FFXI the main aspect of character development is having numerous jobs leveled because of the ability to switch jobs. If we had stand-alone jobs and talent trees/advanced classes, then you could link character development to a singular job and open options within said job. Again, that ship has long since sailed.