Pet Classes /Personalization/?

[Warlock]

Thats an interesting concept, I was thinking how to make the difference from puppetmaster to beastmaster to summoner and keep them personal.

Because as SodRansom says, and as you say throwing a chain of pets mercilessly at the enemy with no connection - feels pretty lame.

But how would you balance a player that choose 1 versus a player that choose 3 pets? Or what would make the play style difference from puppet to beast (1 pet vs 1 auto)? Forgive me but I didn't play puppet master so that may have been a silly question. I can imagine the growth of the pet and the auto would be different, one is equipment the other is a literal growing and time (perhaps they could include some sort of nurturing events as well).

Still, I'm interested to hear :P. Like I said I've got 0 for puppet experience so perhaps the answer is obvious lol

Something like this.. as the Master i want my pet to be deadly and protected at the same time there is a bond between us



Puppets on the other hand are just tools

[Tonkra]

Puppets on the other hand are just tools

no they arent.. a puppet also felt like it had a soul. and was bond to me

i felt like being with a vivi alike thing around.


and i hate taming monsters personally.. because they are so "standard".. standard monsters which you fight in battle... and you have hundreds of hundreds tamer classes especially since hunter in WoW...
thats why i prefer puppetmaster over beastmaster. its fresh and different.

but unfortunatley i think they go with beastmaster first -_-

Thats interesting as well, the desire for the animals to actually remain in a sense wild. Never fully tamed?

its not an interesting system... it was an annoying mess in FFXI. and the reason why no one EVER invited a beastmaster into his group, when there is a huge risk to get hit by his own pet each time.

Trust me, Dark Age of Camelot had also some kind of system... in the end after 10 years now.. they ended up with permanent charm, because no one used that other charm anymore.. it was too ineffective.

you can do it like that... monster with the same level as yours -> permanent charm... level above yours -> charm which can resist from time to time.

Yeah I hear ya with the no soul or personality. And I agree with you as far as jug pets go. I guess with charmed mobs though I always felt like they did have a personality, albeit not the same kind as a puppet might. I can see how with pup it's nice because you have the same puppet that you can build up and customize, and you grow attached to as you go up in levels. But I think that the beastmaster charmed pets also had a personality, but a different kind. There's was more of a wild, untamed personality. As you start charming the same mobs over and over you start building up a connection with them, and you have memories about monsters that you killed together. For example, in the La Vaule zone of ffxi, I feel a huge affinity with those pugs down in the trenches. I killed so many of those La Vaule nms in that zone with those little dudes...and they got me killed more often than not too lol.

But that's another thing about bst that I hope they keep. That element of danger that accompanied the job. You never knew whether a charm was going to succeed or not. And while it was usually a reliable skill, the fact that it might fail made the job really exciting. True, you're going to bitch and moan when the charm fails right when you need it the most, but that danger element made the job really attractive to me. That's another reason I don't want a kind of beastmaster that just gets a pet familiar that follows him around. That seems like a cop out. There's no danger there, your pet will follow you around no matter what. There's nothing that separates a good beastmaster from a bad one really.

seperates a good between a bad beastmaster?! ah come on.. the charm system itself did not need anything like "skill"

the charm did not last longer if you were a good or a bad beastmaster.. there was a time when the charm broke for 100%.
i think that kind of charm system sucked (i knew that kind of charm system already from the minstrel in Dark Age of Camelot).

To make the beastmaster useful for a group it'd be better for them to implement a permanent charm..
to be a useful party member in an instance the beastmaster should be able to... dont know.. to have about 3-5 "save slots" to save his personal pets. and call them wherever he wants to.


thats the only way to make him an attractive job for groups and instanced raids. a charm which we know in FFXI just sucked. and that was the reason why it was a solo class.


give him about 3-5 save slots for his personal pets (like the skill slots for the blue mage in FFXI). so that he can call his pets wherever he is (in instances etc).. and make him able to exchange his existing pets against new ones.

[Shougun]

its not an interesting system... it was an annoying mess in FFXI. and the reason why no one EVER invited a beastmaster into his group, when there is a huge risk to get hit by his own pet each time.

Trust me, Dark Age of Camelot had also some kind of system... in the end after 10 years now.. they ended up with permanent charm, because no one used that other charm anymore.. it was too ineffective.

you can do it like that... monster with the same level as yours -> permanent charm... level above yours -> charm which can resist from time to time.

I think they could change it so when the pet disobeys it perhaps runs away or like pokemon says "rush evolved Charzard: F U" and does nothing. In this way they are not a threat to be invited to party. Since a beastmaster relies on their pet fully it is still quite punishing to have your damage output lock up because of poor play. Say taking in that balancing act idea in my post, instead of the monster beating you to shit he does something a little less realistic so beastmasters are not a threat to the party.

[Tonkra]

I think they could change it so when the pet disobeys it perhaps runs away or like pokemon says "rush evolved Charzard: F U" and does nothing. In this way they are not a threat to be invited to party. Since a beastmaster relies on their pet fully it is still quite punishing to have your damage output lock up because of poor play. Say taking in that balancing act idea in my post, instead of the monster beating you to shit he does something a little less realistic so beastmasters are not a threat to the party.

thats no solution.

imagine a bossfight against garuda with a beastmaster in party.. after 3 minutes "oh sorry guys.. my pet ran away"
do you REALLY think a beastmaster would get invited then anymore? a beastmasters positive aspect is his pet and its monsterskills. when he loses it many times within a fight its nothing more than ineffective, useless and annoying of course.
the only guys who liked that job in FFXI have been pure soloist players or masochists. the system itself was just poorly bad. (and that opinion coming from a person who loves pet jobs)


and isnt it better to have a real "companion" with you as a beastmaster instead of always wild and timid pets who run away how they want to? Does a wild horse run away after you succeeded taming it?..

so i say:

for the pet itself:
- permant charm (at least for monster at the same level as you)
- about 5 save slots for different beasts to make the beastmaster be able to call his pets even in an instanced raid.
- maybe a restistable charm for pets that are higher than your level, with the risk of breaking the charm (giving BST the option to charm higher monsters)


to make him a useful class for groups.. and of course.. less ANNOYING..
the resistable charm would give BST the option to charm mobs, that are at a higher level with a risk that they can break the charm at anytime.

besides that they should give BST other skills to push his own damage.. like:

for the BST:
- berserk mode (boosts melee damage, reduces defense)
- savagery (boosts evasion and acc)
- transfer pain to the pet for a certain time (20% ish)
- sacrifice pet (regain HP + stat boost for a certain time)
- use horn to call one of your saved beasts


because a pet only does not grant you a place in a party. when they are going to introduce BST they should do a bit more than just a charm skill.

[Shougun]

thats no solution.

imagine a bossfight against garuda with a beastmaster in party.. after 3 minutes "oh sorry guys.. my pet ran away"
do you REALLY think a beastmaster would get invited then anymore? a beastmasters positive aspect is his pet and its monsterskills. when he loses it many times within a fight its nothing more than ineffective, useless and annoying of course.
the only guys who liked that job in FFXI have been pure soloist players or masochists. the system itself was just bad.


and isnt it better to have a real "companion" with you as a beastmaster instead of always wild and timid pets who run away how they want to? Does a wild horse run away after you succeeded taming it?..

so i say:

- permant charm (at least for monster at the same level as you)
- about 5 save slots for different beasts to make the beastmaster be able to call his pets even in an instanced raid.
- maybe a restistable charm for pets that are higher than your level (but no option to save it to your pet reportoir, more or less the same crappy charm skill like in FFXI)


to make him a useful class for groups.. and of course.. less ANNOYING..
the resistable charm would give BST the option to charm mobs, that are at a higher level.

I meant the pet would runaway but be within tameable radius (and stay non aggro unless you left it alone for a long time, in which it would despawn).

And yes I think so. If you make the beastmaster able to do enough damage that they can balance their animal then its fine.

It would be just like a Blackmage using their mana, some do it poorly others do it really well no one kicks a black mage out because they can go to 0 magic and are useless.

Also having your pet grow in loyalty would make the pet easier to juggle in its wild / tame side so as a beastmaster you could distinctively feel play difference between your wild and non wild pets.

So a loyal pet that you piss off would maybe disobey for a second but stay put, perhaps when getting attacked personally the pet will never disobey (loyal pets will defend their master without thought of self) because I dont buy the cast one spell and you have a fully tamed pet idea. But I also agree that having a full on pet is way more enjoyable then something that hates you and something you just send off to die lol.

[Shurrikhan]

thats no solution.

imagine a bossfight against garuda with a beastmaster in party.. after 3 minutes "oh sorry guys.. my pet ran away"
do you REALLY think a beastmaster would get invited then anymore? a beastmasters positive aspect is his pet and its monsterskills. when he loses it many times within a fight its nothing more than ineffective, useless and annoying of course.
the only guys who liked that job in FFXI have been pure soloist players or masochists. the system itself was just poorly bad. (and that opinion coming from a person who loves pet jobs)


and isnt it better to have a real "companion" with you as a beastmaster instead of always wild and timid pets who run away how they want to? Does a wild horse run away after you succeeded taming it?..

to make him a useful class for groups.. and of course.. less ANNOYING..

*the resistable charm would give BST the option to charm mobs, that are at a higher level with a risk that they can break the charm at anytime.

because a pet only does not grant you a place in a party. when they are going to introduce BST they should do a bit more than just a charm skill.

You could always change the way a Beast-master works depending on his being in a raid vs. simple leveling. Having the possibility of your pet running away, while being fairly bursty when able to partly influence that same wild (and thereby non-weakened) enemy beast would be a fun part of leveling. Though even then it would certainly help to have a spare consistent (weaker) pet at the ready to back you up.

All it really takes is formula changes. A "tamed beast", as compared to a "pet", would keep its additional abilities and strength, rather than sharing strength with you based on your stats and its calculation types, but is able to flee. A single additional pet slot already allows a beast-master to be used to cause friendly-fire among enemies in the worst of cases, without the risk that comes with being unable to replace the risky minion at a later time. If that's not enough, we could set boss fights to keep "tamed beast" type skills at "pet"-calculated loyalty and strength. This would allow certain pre-scripted encounter variance dependent on having certain beasts from before the boss fight, etc, without immense risk (aside from perhaps losing whatever bonuses you've worked up between you and your pet during the fight before fleeing or going berserk on your party).

I'd prefer that taming itself not be too easy at low levels, and taming by spell alone not last long without due later effort even at high levels. I'm fine with seeing it rarely used in instances when there's not enough time to lead a lonely-looking enemy wolf away with a line of meat slabs, kind telepathy, and some petting. We always have our primary pets, and at some point we'll hit the limits of our kennel sizes, no matter how much room we're given.

Edit: I completely agree with SodRansom that taming should be a major element of the job though, for those who wish to use it. It's a feature of the job that goes beyond merely how it does combat, and removing it would be like a Gambler class without any risk involved in its structure. Trusting the instinct of a beast, guarding against it, efficiently or optomistically balancing both... those are some pretty cool thematic elements, to put it mildly.

[Exn]

Stuff about BST..

You talk as if you never actually played BST in XI...

1) BST not getting invites to parties had NOTHING to do with charm; they simply had two decent party roles, Fish or DD, and they effectively were terrible at both in comparison to the other.. more party-orientated.. classes. Even still, in my 6 years on XI (pre Abyssea...) I was in quite a few parties with BST when I couldn't find anything else to fill the spot.

2) Charm could most certainly last longer if you were a better (geared) BST; Not to mention a noob BST has a much smaller chance of a successful recovery after missing a charm...

Beastmaster should DEFINETLY keep charm/tame as a staple to the class, period.

[Tonkra]

You talk as if you never actually played BST in XI...

1) BST not getting invites to parties had NOTHING to do with charm; they simply had two decent party roles, Fish or DD, and they effectively were terrible at both in comparison to the other.. more party-orientated.. classes. Even still, in my 6 years on XI (pre Abyssea...) I was in quite a few parties with BST when I couldn't find anything else to fill the spot.

2) Charm could most certainly last longer if you were a better (geared) BST; Not to mention a noob BST has a much smaller chance of a successful recovery after missing a charm...

Beastmaster should DEFINETLY keep charm/tame as a staple to the class, period.

so what did i say differently? i know that BST was also VERY too average.
but the charm system was also a VERY (if not the most) reason for a BST not being in a party (especially in an instance)

i also wrote they should implement more skills than just a charm to the BST to distinguish much more to other classes:

for example things like:
- berserk mode (boosts melee damage, reduces defense)
- savagery (boosts evasion and acc)
- transfer pain to the pet for a certain time (20% ish)
- sacrifice pet (regain HP + stat boost for a certain time)
- use horn to call one of your saved beasts
- roar (reduces targets attack and crit chance)
- WS that cause bleedings
- fear...

many possibillities


well and you did not listen

2) Charm could most certainly last longer if you were a better (geared) BST; Not to mention a noob BST has a much smaller chance of a successful recovery after missing a charm...

woohoo.. so much better..

and you are so totally wrong.. it was not just because beastmaster was so "average" in every thing, because you cant take your beasts into an instance.. thats why i say a beast should have about 5 save slots for his tamed beasts to call them everywhere..
the jug pets in FFXI have been just a big joke,.

what does a beastmaster is useful for in a dungeon where he cant tame a beast? how useful is it for a group, when the boss itself is hardcore enough, and additionally the beastmaster has to handle/ "fight" against his own beast... and of course the worst case that he gets knocked out because of his own pet..

THESE are BIG ISSUES for non permenant charms. thats why no one wanted a minstrel in Dark Age Of Camelot to use his charm in a group ("leave your pet please aside it hits you every fucking 30 seconds..")

Beastmaster should DEFINETLY keep charm/tame as a staple to the class, period.

welcome to the last century...

and dragoons in FFXIV still have wyvern pets... yes...

this is FFXIV and not FFXI and they shouldnt make the same mistakes twice.
and a BST in FFXI was an ABSOLUTE design mess. A Dragoon in FFXIV is now also very much more popular than it has been in FFXI.

the same should happen to the BST, if they are going to introduce this job.

[Exn]

More stuff

No I listened, er well tried too, but your making little sense to anyone who actually played the class. Perhaps why your not getting much support... Aside from that, your ideas of abilities to supplement charm/tame aren't bad, which is why I didn't bother to address them.

My two statements still stand, regardless on if you want to try to change your view now to agree. BST invites had NOTHING to do with charm... (well in my 6 years of playing); and skill/experience definetly factored into using charm/tame effectively, not just random dumb luck...

You last comment about tame/charm being last century?! So I guess while were at it lets remove elemental magic from BLMs, Healing Magic from WHM, Jump from DRGs, etc... Yeah, you sure do make an excellent point there..

Anyway, I'm not trying to change your rather skewed opinion on the matter, I just responded because you seemed disappointed that people weren't replying to your views on the matter..

[SodRansom]

Beastmaster should DEFINETLY keep charm/tame as a staple to the class, period.

I totally love the discussion that is going on here. Shougun and Tonkra, you both have some really good ideas that frankly I need to just stop reading because I get too excited lol.

But I needed to quote this from Exn because I TOTALLY agree! Charm and Tame are imo the staple of beastmasters. They are what make that class totally unique. Without them they don't seem much different to me than a summoner, you're just summoning from a jug vs something else. The ability to interact with the mobs you find out in the wild is something I find extremely attractive, and that should NEVER go away. Otherwise you just get a canned pet that, while it is appealing to have a permanent "companion," the fact that you can't tame any other beasts you find goes totally against the lore of the job.

As far as the value a bst brings to a pt goes, it's true that this could probably be tweaked more, and ffxi's solution to this was to do away with charm and just make bst a glorified dd, only as good as his jug pet was. (lol, there went the millions of gil I spent in +chr gear). But this is where the discussion would need to take place if SE was ever going to implement bst into ffxiv. How do we let a bst interact with his environment in order to bring value to a party.

Having said that though, I was always content to play solo in ffxi. I loved being able to do things in a low man party that would take others a whole party plus some to accomplish. That brings on the question, is it ok to have a job in an MMO that is more viable for solo? Imo yes it is, because there is more interaction in an mmo than just fighting in parties, but others might disagree.

Also, to clarify what I meant by this:

seperates a good between a bad beastmaster?! ah come on.. the charm system itself did not need anything like "skill"

It IS true that charm in itself does not require any skill (unless you count what gear you have as skill, which I really don't) But what you do when charm fails, and how you react to that situation, especially when it happens in the most inconvenient moment IS what separates a good bst from a bad one. That's what I meant by this. You take that element of danger away, and it's really just hack and slash..all the time.