Counter to Elitism

[Elexia]

no one actually cares.

Unless, of course you like to play MNK or DRG when most people only want BLMs for 99% of XIV's content, then people care and will tell you to gtfo despite content being beatable with varied setups. Luckily SE is making ARR so easy that it won't really matter much lol.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

Unless, of course you like to play MNK or DRG when most people only want BLMs for 99% of XIV's content, then people care and will tell you to gtfo despite content being beatable with varied setups. Luckily SE is making ARR so easy that it won't really matter much lol.

i don't think making things easy is the way to counter class stacking <_< just like the ranged overpower in 1.0 isn't because they were difficult.
Raven, nevermore is the right way to do a balanced encounter: something impossible to kill just adding the same type of jobs

[Skinwalker]

I think we need a counter for unneeded topics <.<

That just like sounds like:

"Hey Boss I don't like to work at all but give me the pay from your top manager"

...

[Reynhart]

I think we need a counter for unneeded topics <.<
That just like sounds like:
"Hey Boss I don't like to work at all but give me the pay from your top manager"
...

Would you be happy if your paycheck doesn't "drop" every month ?

[EinSoFZ]

i don't think making things easy is the way to counter class stacking <_< just like the ranged overpower in 1.0 isn't because they were difficult.
Raven, nevermore is the right way to do a balanced encounter: something impossible to kill just adding the same type of jobs

IE: Give us stuff to do that requires something other than tank & spank tactics. I'd say they were on the right track in 1.0 as far as battles went. Fights like Garuda, Nael and a couple of others took some true skill to defeat (although BLM still was most popular). From what I can see in ARR, they're going a step backwards by both altering the battle system and changing boss mechanics. I know what we've seen is just alpha, but if your foundation is weak you can't expect to have a sturdy house in the end.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

IE: Give us stuff to do that requires something other than tank & spank tactics. I'd say they were on the right track in 1.0 as far as battles went. Fights like Garuda, Nael and a couple of others took some true skill to defeat (although BLM still was most popular). From what I can see in ARR, they're going a step backwards by both altering the battle system and changing boss mechanics. I know what we've seen is just alpha, but if your foundation is weak you can't expect to have a sturdy house in the end.

not only it's alpha, it's regular mobs with a starter dungeon. It's obvious you can't expect any strategy. However, i don't think i understand what a non-tank and spank fight would be, aside kiting (which is shit)

[Elexia]

IE: Give us stuff to do that requires something other than tank & spank tactics.

Unless I'm thinking of the wrong genre (i'm not) everything is tank and spank in some variation.

Fights like Garuda, Nael and a couple of others took some true skill to defeat

Garuda: Tank, keep it focused on the tank, spank the bitch. Variation: Hide behind rocks to avoid damage, try not to let her damage the rocks.

Nael: Tank, keep it focused on the tank, spank him. Variation: Have someone beat on him while he's summoning meteors, try not to let meteors land.

So yes, everything is "tank and spank" with a variation. "True skill" comes with the people but that "true skill" doesn't matter if people find a way to do it "the easy way" which happens in every MMORPG. Class stacking only happens if it leads to an "easy way" which everyone will follow because no one likes to work for their rewards.

[EinSoFZ]

Well put like that, I guess everything could be tank and spank in reality. But to me it's true tank and spank when you can literally just send a tank up to a boss and as long as you have someone healing them you don't need to move, you don't need to consider which skills to use, don't consider positioning or the monsters abilities at all; just jam on your strongest WS or spell and it's a sure win.

So though Garuda is getting tanked and taken down with damage, you can't just run up to it with any class and whack it down provided there's someone to absorb the bulk of damage. I think if SE were to elaborate further with more detailed boss mechanics we could have some fun fights in the game. I get so bored when there's nothing to a fight but to attack it with a meat shield and wait for it to die. Are players really asking for that? From what I can tell SE seems to think so anyway.

So yeah, the entire point of most fights is to tank it while doing damage to defeat it. I understand that's how it all works. I guess what I'm trying to say is that they can include situations which require players to think critically within that framework if that makes any sense.

So yes, everything is "tank and spank" with a variation. "True skill" comes with the people but that "true skill" doesn't matter if people find a way to do it "the easy way" which happens in every MMORPG. Class stacking only happens if it leads to an "easy way" which everyone will follow because no one likes to work for their rewards.

My solution or rather a viable solution many have thought of would be to dissuade players from class stacking by negating any benefit from doing so. Take the easy way out of that scenario. I'd elaborate, but there are tons of ways to accomplish this quite reasonably without actually gimping any job. Why developers want to use stale, played-out mechanics is beyond me. More so beyond me is why people would ask for the same old shit we've always had, citing it being too difficult or time consuming to have otherwise.

[Elexia]

Indeed but it comes down to a simple concept:

It's what sells in this day and age of MMORPGs.

So while they tried to switch it up, it's why I liked what they started doing with bosses in XI in it's later life despite limitations of the engine. While you tank and spank, they make it so you can't just do it straight up by changing the battle flow throughout, i.e you have some bosses that throw up a magic shield which gives it a silence/paralyze aura which causes you to shift your tactic which is something they did heavily in FFXIV with some bosses:

Garuda changes her attack patterns and spits out clones including battlefield hazards after Aerial Blast if you skip no phases (how SE intended the fight to be). Comparatively, in FFXI if you fight "Seed Crystal" in the addon you have the crystal focus on your tank and it will occasionally spit out clones of a party member that has to be dealt with or you're eventually swarmed with clones.

Chimera if you incap the tail it loses the ability to use scorpion sting for awhile much like in XI if you incap hydra's heads it loses a lot of defense and regen power.

So even if it's "stale mechanics" when you really analyze it, it's more about if the fight itself is interesting especially in regards to storyline fights. People want to fight Bahamut and come up with crazy speculation of the fight, but within a realistic expectations it's likely going to be another form of tank and spank with various ways to help/hinder the fight, i.e it's guaranteed he'll use one of his Mega/giga/tetraflare attacks but it just comes down to when/how. In Abyssea in XI, there's a monster you can't physically attack at all due to him "flying" and even monsters(in sea for example) who travel above/below the ground untargetable.

So really you could only do so much within design without turning a game into something it's not, like if a boss requires a ton of platforming to accomplish it's no longer the same game you thought you were playing lol. What it really comes down to though:

just jam on your strongest WS or spell and it's a sure win.

This is up to how SE designs the game and how players play the game because this is why people don't like seeing ARR coming to a 'spamfest' because that's the type of encounters that end up being introduced or the typical "must kill minions before main guy is killable" you see in many MMOs of today.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that they can include situations which require players to think critically within that framework if that makes any sense.

And as said, if this happens people will complain it's too hard or "not player friendly" and we're back to square one.

[EinSoFZ]

It's what sells in this day and age of MMORPGs.

So while they tried to switch it up, it's why I liked what they started doing with bosses in XI in it's later life despite limitations of the engine. While you tank and spank, they make it so you can't just do it straight up by changing the battle flow throughout, i.e you have some bosses that throw up a magic shield which gives it a silence/paralyze aura which causes you to shift your tactic which is something they did heavily in FFXIV with some bosses:

So even if it's "stale mechanics" when you really analyze it, it's more about if the fight itself is interesting especially in regards to storyline fights.

I'd agree with you on these points. Many are tired of those of us who played FFXI trying to add elements from that game into this one, but really it's not such a bad thing to do. FFXI didn't get it right all of the time, but one thing I can say is that it had variation going for it. Many boss fights took the usual mechanic and then often put a twist on it such that you couldn't defeat it like you did another battle.

As you said, this made progressing through the story so much more interesting; figuring out how to get past these fights. As far FFXIV has shown me, they're choosing the leave a great deal of that out in favor of more simplistic battles but also they haven't forgotten them altogether as Garuda, Nael, etc. show. Overall I get the impression they're unsure of how to go about actually implementing ideas in this game such that everyone is happy and their pockets are lined.

Do we make a watered down shell of game or do we actually pump it up and make this fun yet darn right hard in some spots?

This is up to how SE designs the game and how players play the game because this is why people don't like seeing ARR coming to a 'spamfest' because that's the type of encounters that end up being introduced or the typical "must kill minions before main guy is killable" you see in many MMOs of today.

And as said, if this happens people will complain it's too hard or "not player friendly" and we're back to square one.

I just don't understand what the players really want. Me? I want a game that I can play and reasonably accomplish my goals after having gone through some trials and tribulations. Don't want things handed to me or being made incredibly easy to accomplish.I feel nothing from playing a game like that. It reminds me of the old mario games where running in a straight line was just about all there was to it. Even as a kid I beat those with such ease that I never felt like I did something at the end.

Not saying certain things can't be easy, but endgame of 1.0 was a joke; a colossal joke. If ARR is going to be so breezy, I don't see the point.

I get the impression most of us want some challenge to it. So where is all of this casualization and rebelling against difficulty coming from? Are people that upset when they can't have the best of the best? Or is that what's actually selling....?

If it is, I think consumers are shortchanging themselves for a false sense of satisfaction. As far as the thread topic goes, it's kind of like a dissolution of the noble class. If everything is piss easy and everyone is equal, no elites can exist. Though, I laugh at all of OP's suggestion and can't imagine people actually want that.