Counter to Elitism

[Reynhart]

Ok, I give up.
Too many people consider that "random" equals "challenging" and "repeating the same content" equals "being a good player".

Good news is, every MMO is lazy enough to think that way too, so you'll be well served.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Ok, I give up.
Too many people consider that "random" equals "challenging" and "repeating the same content" equals "being a good player".

Good news is, every MMO is lazy enough to think that way too, so you'll be well served.

Well come on, Reyhart. Let's be honest here. The system we have works, and it keeps players coming back for more. Therefore, it succeeds. If you have a better system, you should present it. Note, I said "better" system. This is just my humble $0.02, but your paint by numbers gambit "things you shoulda done" system idea, well, it kind of... sucked. No offense meant, of course.

[Reynhart]

Well come on, Reyhart. Let's be honest here. The system we have works, and it keeps players coming back for more. Therefore, it succeeds. If you have a better system, you should present it. Note, I said "better" system. This is just my humble $0.02, but your paint by numbers gambit "things you shoulda done" system idea, well, it kind of... sucked. No offense meant, of course.

Honestly, I don't understand how this system still works. What motivation can people find to do the same thing a 200th time, when they were screwed 199 times by a simple dice roll ?

How do people thought, back in the days of FFXI, that getting the Empress Hairpin was "challenging" when you could OS the NM that could drop it ?

And more importantly, why do they consider people who claim "challenge over random" to be "gimme gimme players" ?

My ideas certainly have flaws, but at least you could feel proud when the game rewards you.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Honestly, I don't understand how this system still works. What motivation can people find to do the same thing a 200th time, when they were screwed 199 times by a simple dice roll ?

Your exaggeration is noted. But the thing of it is, time and repitition are part of what makes an MMO. You may get lucky on the first roll. Then again you may not. On the other hand, you'll probably have to run the dungeon again in order to get yet another piece or loot you're looking for. To tell you the truth, if the content is fun and you have a few friends willing to run it either for their pieces of loot or to help you get your own, it's really not as bad as you're painting it out to be. If it was, it would have failed a long time ago instead of being featured in MMOs multiple times.

How do people thought, back in the days of FFXI, that getting the Empress Hairpin was "challenging" when you could OS the NM that could drop it ?

I've never played FFXI, so I have no idea what you're talking about. But I do know this: Making content challenging is only part of what makes an MMO worthwhile. Dungeons exist also as an alternative for gaining rewards that boost your character. A Dev's job is to make the content and the reward enticing enough so that a player is willing to repeat said content for said reward.

And more importantly, why do they consider people who claim "challenge over random" to be "gimme gimme players" ?

I don't know, but I do know that random is needed in these kinds of runs just as much as challenge.

My ideas certainly have flaws, but at least you could feel proud when the game rewards you.

Well, I'm frankly speaking for myself, but when my wand dropped for my WHM in one of my primal fights, I felt pretty proud myself.

[Reynhart]

Your exaggeration is noted. But the thing of it is, time and repitition are part of what makes an MMO. You may get lucky on the first roll. Then again you may not.

Some people on my LS have done Ifrit more than 500 times to get all the seven weapons. It's not exaggerated to say they were screwed more than 200 times.

On the other hand, you'll probably have to run the dungeon again in order to get yet another piece or loot you're looking for. To tell you the truth, if the content is fun and you have a few friends willing to run it either for their pieces of loot or to help you get your own, it's really not as bad as you're painting it out to be. If it was, it would have failed a long time ago instead of being featured in MMOs multiple times.

Doing the dungeon for another loot or to help a friend is totally different. If you have 5 or 10 items items in a dungeon, of course you would have te repeat it. Like I said in one post, if only one item is guaranteed on each run, even for a full PT, it'd be fairer.

Making content challenging is only part of what makes an MMO worthwhile. Dungeons exist also as an alternative for gaining rewards that boost your character. A Dev's job is to make the content and the reward enticing enough so that a player is willing to repeat said content for said reward.

Dungeons are "challenging content". You shouldn't offer good reward in an "unchallenging content", and winning a dice roll is not challenging.

A Dev's job is to make the content and the reward enticing enough so that a player is willing to repeat said content for said reward.

No, the content and reward should be enticing enough so that a player is willing to do it.

I don't know, but I do know that random is needed in these kinds of runs just as much as challenge.

A little random is good. How a content rewards you can be random, not If a content should reward you. (Dark Matter is not a reward for killing a primal )

Well, I'm frankly speaking for myself, but when my wand dropped for my WHM in one of my primal fights, I felt pretty proud myself.

Since you probably killed that primal numerous times (For that you should be proud) before dropping it, there's nothing special from this win that could make you more proud of yourself.

[MicahZerrshia]

Some people on my LS have done Ifrit more than 500 times to get all the seven weapons. It's not exaggerated to say they were screwed more than 200 times.

I call bs on this unless you have some proof. Otherwise complete and total exaggeration

Maybe 500 times to get all members all weapons of a ls that consists of 20+ ppl. I myself went 67 kills before I got my first weapon, but then by kill #85 I had all 7.

The drop rate was bad, but not that bad.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Some people on my LS have done Ifrit more than 500 times to get all the seven weapons. It's not exaggerated to say they were screwed more than 200 times.

It's also quite plausible to say that they simply weren't lucky enough to get what they wanted those "200" times they played. (200 seems like an exaggeration to me as well, but I'll allow it, since I wasn't really there when your LS members were playing.) Anyway, it's the luck of the draw. Some people have it, some have less than others.

Doing the dungeon for another loot or to help a friend is totally different. If you have 5 or 10 items items in a dungeon, of course you would have to repeat it. Like I said in one post, if only one item is guaranteed on each run, even for a full PT, it'd be fairer.

What is fair is a matter or perspective. Some people may not feel it's fair that they are not guaranteed high tier gear EVERY time they run a dungeon once. Some people may feel it's not fair that they actually have to group up with others to get access to said gear. Some people may think it's not fair they don't get a cookie every time they step into a dungeon. lol But the way the system is set up now, it all but guarantees 100% that people will continue to revisit dungeons if they want quality tier rare items. Setting it up that way helps keep players busy while playing the game at highest level. Granted, it may not be the most graceful or "fair" way to elongate a player's business with content in a game, but it works.

Dungeons are "challenging content". You shouldn't offer good reward in an "unchallenging content", and winning a dice roll is not challenging.

However, the dungeon itself is challenging enough to balance with the reward you are trying to receive. Unfortunately, the content is not the only obstacle that stands between you and your desired gear. (shrug) What are ya gonna do? Well, besides run it again. lol It can be a bitter pill to swallow, but you have to understand something. Just making content challenging is not what keeps an mmo running. Indeed, it's not really the most important aspect of keeping an mmo running. What keeps an mmo running is time, more specifically time the players invest into the game. Adding the luck factor to drops all but totally ensures the player will be back to spend more time in that dungeon. It's a system that works. And quite well, I may add.

No, the content and reward should be enticing enough so that a player is willing to do it.


A little random is good. How a content rewards you can be random, not If a content should reward you. (Dark Matter is not a reward for killing a primal )

You say that, after I said:

A Dev's job is to make the content and the reward enticing enough so that a player is willing to repeat said content for said reward.

What say we meet somewhere in the middle on this? (I am not beyond compromise :P) The content should be enticing enough so that the player is willing to do it repeatedly. The reward is part of the enticement. Do you want it? Do ya? Oh, you want better rewards for just running the dungeon than totems? Fine. Well how about a small piece of green gear? Suppose you were getting that instead of totems? Of course, that wouldn't satisfy a lot of people who may feel they deserve at least one piece of blue gear or primal weapon for running. So the complaining would continue, lol. You can please all the people some of the time... yadda yadda. The thing of it is, you are not really going to be satisfied until you get that one epic item you're looking for. You're still going to repeat the content. So, what would be the point? You're asking for a trophy at least for participating. But the truth of it is, not everyone can get a reward just for being there. The luck factor, man. It can be a witch. But it keeps players returning for more, and makes getting the item all the more satisfying.

Since you probably killed that primal numerous times (For that you should be proud) before dropping it, there's nothing special from this win that could make you more proud of yourself.

Okay, we'll meet in the middle again. I was proud because, through repeating the process, I got good at the fight enough so that I could do it blindfolded. I was proud that I totally kicked the butt of the primal that stood before me minutes ago, and was good enough at the fight so I was an indispensable healer AND DD to my team. And I was proud I stuck it out all those times I did it until I got my stuff instead of giving up out of frustration and getting nothing for my troubles. The primal weapon I got was not just a testament of my skill, it was a testament of my patience as well.

[KaiTBF]

Ok, I give up.

Liar.

Also, I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that low drop rates make content challenging (though repeating content hundreds of times making one a better player is another thing entirely seeing as humans learn best through repetition. E.G. a skilled welder is skilled because he's practiced welding for 10 years. This is of course taking geniuses out of the picture because they wouldn't really be geniuses if they were so common that we could consider it the norm. Also skill in an mmo is really subjective to begin with, and ""being a good player" is so subjective that we could spend hours arguing about it, so let's not bring that up again.) Anyways, back to what I was saying. What most of us are trying to tell you isn't that we think random number generated drop rates makes content challenging, but that they're necessary to give the dev team time to develop other content, and to keep people playing. As of right now a rng is the best way to suck up your time (which we already covered as being priority #1) and no one, including yourself, has proposed an alternate system that could work for the standard MMO and make the black hole that eats all of our time and money any more enjoyable than it is. I will agree however that drop rates don't need to be as horrendous as they are.

Also... no one I know ever considered killing the Valkrum Emperor a challenge, the only challenging part was getting claim. Most people just considered camping the stupid lizard and fly a huge pain in the ass.

[Reynhart]

Liar.

You're right, I should really stop posting for nothing

What most of us are trying to tell you isn't that we think random number generated drop rates makes content challenging

Wrong. Maybe not everyone in this thread, but I posted on other threads, and a lot of people told me that content is "hard because it dropped few"

but that they're necessary to give the dev team time to develop other content, and to keep people playing.

I don't think so. If they design more content like "The Raven Nevermore", they'd have plenty of time to come up with new ideas before everyone on each server managed to beat it.

As of right now a rng is the best way to suck up your time (which we already covered as being priority #1) and no one, including yourself, has proposed an alternate system that could work for the standard MMO and make the black hole that eats all of our time and money any more enjoyable than it is.

More difficult fights, steadily but surely building your way up for the items. These are, IMO, two ways that are far better than RNG supremacy.

Also... no one I know ever considered killing the Valkrum Emperor a challenge, the only challenging part was getting claim. Most people just considered camping the stupid lizard and fly a huge pain in the ass.

I didn't say "killing the Valkurm Emperor" is a challenge" but "obtaining the Empress Hairpin".

The worst part of this is, as long as we support RNG mechanics and repeating content, developpers will still design their games that way. After all, if it still works, why would they push themselves too hard to bring something else ?

[ispano]

I don't think so. If they design more content like "The Raven Nevermore", they'd have plenty of time to come up with new ideas before everyone on each server managed to beat it.

The problem with this is if they make it that difficult, most WON'T beat it ever. There's a reason Blizzard "dumbed down" alot of end game stuff after it gets released, because they didn't feel enough people got to experience it. There's a lot of people, like I said before, who just won't put in the time and effort to get really good and just want the game to be laid back. But when they can't do parts of it due to that, they don't play. And SE wants to attract some of these people.

I see it more and more these days, the mentality of people growing up and playing games. Not all of them mind you, but many. My nephew for example, I introduced him to some SNES games I had(played via EMU though) He liked many of them, but gave up on them just a few minutes in for being "too hard". And I see this everywhere I go just about.