Counter to Elitism

[SkyeWindbinder]

Isn't that sad for a game to require "time" over "skill" ?

Actually, if an MMO does it right, it should require adequate amounts of both. You should be good enough in elite content to know what you're doing, and it should also not just be a one-shot run for elite rewards.

[Reynhart]

Actually, if an MMO does it right, it should require adequate amounts of both. You should be good enough in elite content to know what you're doing, and it should also not just be a one-shot run for elite rewards.

One shot can be justified if the run is really difficult. The Raven Nevermore always gave you the Earring, but you'd still deserved it.

For the dungeons or primals, you probably need severals items, so you'll be doing them more than once. But even if you don't have an item each time, you should have something that made you progress towards your goal.

Like 100% totem drop for Ifrit, or a token from CC/AV. Something a little better than "Thank you Player, but your drop is in another dungeon"

[SkyeWindbinder]

One shot can be justified if the run is really difficult. The Raven Nevermore always gave you the Earring, but you'd still deserved it.

For the dungeons or primals, you probably need severals items, so you'll be doing them more than once. But even if you don't have an item each time, you should have something that made you progress towards your goal.

Like 100% totem drop for Ifrit, or a token from CC/AV. Something a little better than "Thank you Player, but your drop is in another dungeon"

The drops in dungeons like that are luck items. Even if you run the dungeon, you're not guaranteed to get what you want. And really, why should you be? True, you did difficult content. Good for you. But does that mean you should automatically get that fancy glowing super-dee-duper uber staff that you want? Not necessarily. In a dungeon run, some people might get what they desire. Some people won't. That's the way it goes. Why should that change just because a few people want a faster, more guaranteed path to getting what they want? Everyone has the same chance at getting the item, but at the same time, the luck factor is still there, and should stay there. It's what makes getting the drop even more satisfying, knowing that of all the things that could have dropped, the thing you wanted dropped, and you actually got it in a roll against your team mates.

It's kind of like treasure hunting. Yeah, it's hard work, going through a tomb or dungeon, avoiding traps and fighting wildlife and all that, but the thought of getting to the end and finding a pile of gold and jewels from ancient times makes the work worth it. Then you reach a chamber, there might be valuable things there, there might not be. If there is, lucky you! If not, then keep searching the tomb till you (hopefully) find what you want. You don't just quit and say "I went through all that work to get to this point, and the ancient rulers of this crypt didn't even bother to leave some gold around in this room! Screw this, it's not worth it! I'm going to go raid a pawn shop, where I'm guaranteed to get some gold for my troubles!" The luck factor makes getting the reward all the more special.

[KoujiGeki]

The drops in dungeons like that are luck items. Even if you run the dungeon, you're not guaranteed to get what you want. And really, why should you be? True, you did difficult content. Good for you. But does that mean you should automatically get that fancy glowing super-dee-duper uber staff that you want? Not necessarily. In a dungeon run, some people might get what they desire. Some people won't. That's the way it goes. Why should that change just because a few people want a faster, more guaranteed path to getting what they want? Everyone has the same chance at getting the item, but at the same time, the luck factor is still there, and should stay there. It's what makes getting the drop even more satisfying, knowing that of all the things that could have dropped, the thing you wanted dropped, and you actually got it in a roll against your team mates.

It's kind of like treasure hunting. Yeah, it's hard work, going through a tomb or dungeon, avoiding traps and fighting wildlife and all that, but the thought of getting to the end and finding a pile of gold and jewels from ancient times makes the work worth it. Then you reach a chamber, there might be valuable things there, there might not be. If there is, lucky you! If not, then keep searching the tomb till you (hopefully) find what you want. You don't just quit and say "I went through all that work to get to this point, and the ancient rulers of this crypt didn't even bother to leave some gold around in this room! Screw this, it's not worth it! I'm going to go raid a pawn shop, where I'm guaranteed to get some gold for my troubles!" The luck factor makes getting the reward all the more special.

exactly like the Rajas ring, bullshit hard to get, but so worth it even at 99 its still the best ring, and you can use it at 30 it was so worth the mind blowing hardness of CoP.

[Reynhart]

The drops in dungeons like that are luck items. Even if you run the dungeon, you're not guaranteed to get what you want. And really, why should you be? True, you did difficult content.

Indeed you're not guaranteed to get exactly what you want. But getting Dark Matter nine times out of ten after beating the crap out of a Primal is maybe too far in the wrong direction.
You see, if dungeons and primals always dropped one good item for the party, I'd think that would be fair. You had to win the loot to get your item, but in a static PT, you know you'd get a reward at least for the 8th run.

I don't understand how "winning over a dice roll" is "satysfying". Cause basically it's how the drops work.

exactly like the Rajas ring, bullshit hard to get, but so worth it even at 99 its still the best ring, and you can use it at 30 it was so worth the mind blowing hardness of CoP.

It's actually totally different from the Rajas ring. Rajas/Tamas/Sattva were GUARANTEED if you finish CoP. Does that make them less deserved or less satysfying ?
When you saw someone with one of theses rings, you probably tought "Wow, this guy finished CoP, good job". When you saw someone with a HDL gear, you think "Wow...lucky guy"

[SkyeWindbinder]

Indeed you're not guaranteed to get exactly what you want. But getting Dark Matter nine times out of ten after beating the crap out of a Primal is maybe too far in the wrong direction.
You see, if dungeons and primals always dropped one good item for the party, I'd think that would be fair. You had to win the loot to get your item, but in a static PT, you know you'd get a reward at least for the 8th run.

I don't understand how "winning over a dice roll" is "satysfying". Cause basically it's how the drops work.

It's "satisfying" because of the feelings of happiness that come after you win a roll and gain a very awesome drop. I mean, that's usually why it's satisfying, lol. If you wind up doing a dungeon a few times and not getting the item you want, then that means your luck hasn't come in yet. Maybe you'll get it next time. Maybe the time after that. Who knows? The element of skill and luck when fighting in a dungeon for an epic drop make getting the drop all the more gratifying and rewarding. I'm sorry, I just don't think that just because you do content you should automatically be entitled to the epic reward for said content. I also believe that the luck factor makes the reward far more special than the "farm the dungeon for tokens to get the reward" factor.

[Shurrikhan]

It's "satisfying" because of the feelings of happiness that come after you win a roll and gain a very awesome drop. I mean, that's usually why it's satisfying, lol. If you wind up doing a dungeon a few times and not getting the item you want, then that means your luck hasn't come in yet. Maybe you'll get it next time. Maybe the time after that. Who knows? The element of skill and luck when fighting in a dungeon for an epic drop make getting the drop all the more gratifying and rewarding. I'm sorry, I just don't think that just because you do content you should automatically be entitled to the epic reward for said content. I also believe that the luck factor makes the reward far more special than the "farm the dungeon for tokens to get the reward" factor.

I think the issue Reynhart is talking about wouldn't go away even if you had a set 20 times you had to redo the instance to get your loot. Why not just have something (at most) 20 times as long or (at most) 20 times as hard, as long as it could still be done in reasonable particulate spans of time? Simple answer: because it's lazier design. You put in a 20th of the work that you require of players for their drops. A reasonable strategy, but a dull one.

To be honest, I could go either way between preferring to be told straight-up to run something 20 times, or having a 5% chance of getting my item each run. Luck, and drops, have a way of being more distributed based on the wants of the (consistent and/or sympathetic) party, allowing the patient ones to stay in the pool for a while longer at aid to the less patient or further behind. That said, for those without such understanding team members and perpetual bad luck, it can really suck.

Actually, on the whole I slightly prefer RNG as it applies to dungeon drops, but that's still only as the lesser between two evils. I'm in no way condoning the design as anything more than cost-effective, and adding familiarity and longevity (for their time) to content locations (whether we like it or not...).

[Reynhart]

It's "satisfying" because of the feelings of happiness that come after you win a roll and gain a very awesome drop

It's not called "happiness" (Yeah, I got an awesome drop), it's called "end of frustration" (At last...now I can stop doing this dungeon...)

[CamAlch]

It's actually totally different from the Rajas ring. Rajas/Tamas/Sattva were GUARANTEED if you finish CoP. Does that make them less deserved or less satysfying ?
When you saw someone with one of theses rings, you probably tought "Wow, this guy finished CoP, good job". When you saw someone with a HDL gear, you think "Wow...lucky guy"

And that is exactly it. With the RNG system its luck, not accomplishment. I personally favour a system where your rewards are the result of your efforts put forth. That being both time and skill. CoP was a fantastic piece of content, and is a good example, imo.