Counter to Elitism

[EinSoFZ]

It's what sells in this day and age of MMORPGs.

So while they tried to switch it up, it's why I liked what they started doing with bosses in XI in it's later life despite limitations of the engine. While you tank and spank, they make it so you can't just do it straight up by changing the battle flow throughout, i.e you have some bosses that throw up a magic shield which gives it a silence/paralyze aura which causes you to shift your tactic which is something they did heavily in FFXIV with some bosses:

So even if it's "stale mechanics" when you really analyze it, it's more about if the fight itself is interesting especially in regards to storyline fights.

I'd agree with you on these points. Many are tired of those of us who played FFXI trying to add elements from that game into this one, but really it's not such a bad thing to do. FFXI didn't get it right all of the time, but one thing I can say is that it had variation going for it. Many boss fights took the usual mechanic and then often put a twist on it such that you couldn't defeat it like you did another battle.

As you said, this made progressing through the story so much more interesting; figuring out how to get past these fights. As far FFXIV has shown me, they're choosing the leave a great deal of that out in favor of more simplistic battles but also they haven't forgotten them altogether as Garuda, Nael, etc. show. Overall I get the impression they're unsure of how to go about actually implementing ideas in this game such that everyone is happy and their pockets are lined.

Do we make a watered down shell of game or do we actually pump it up and make this fun yet darn right hard in some spots?

This is up to how SE designs the game and how players play the game because this is why people don't like seeing ARR coming to a 'spamfest' because that's the type of encounters that end up being introduced or the typical "must kill minions before main guy is killable" you see in many MMOs of today.

And as said, if this happens people will complain it's too hard or "not player friendly" and we're back to square one.

I just don't understand what the players really want. Me? I want a game that I can play and reasonably accomplish my goals after having gone through some trials and tribulations. Don't want things handed to me or being made incredibly easy to accomplish.I feel nothing from playing a game like that. It reminds me of the old mario games where running in a straight line was just about all there was to it. Even as a kid I beat those with such ease that I never felt like I did something at the end.

Not saying certain things can't be easy, but endgame of 1.0 was a joke; a colossal joke. If ARR is going to be so breezy, I don't see the point.

I get the impression most of us want some challenge to it. So where is all of this casualization and rebelling against difficulty coming from? Are people that upset when they can't have the best of the best? Or is that what's actually selling....?

If it is, I think consumers are shortchanging themselves for a false sense of satisfaction. As far as the thread topic goes, it's kind of like a dissolution of the noble class. If everything is piss easy and everyone is equal, no elites can exist. Though, I laugh at all of OP's suggestion and can't imagine people actually want that.

[ispano]

I get the impression most of us want some challenge to it. So where is all of this casualization and rebelling against difficulty coming from? Are people that upset when they can't have the best of the best? Or is that what's actually selling....?

If it is, I think consumers are shortchanging themselves for a false sense of satisfaction. As far as the thread topic goes, it's kind of like a dissolution of the noble class. If everything is piss easy and everyone is equal, no elites can exist. Though, I laugh at all of OP's suggestion and can't imagine people actually want that.

Thing is, we're a minority. The larger MMO playerbase actually prefers the "laid back, take it easy" playing method. Forum goers are also a minority.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Thing is, we're a minority. The larger MMO playerbase actually prefers the "laid back, take it easy" playing method.

I don't know about that. If those who wanted a challenge were actually the minority, then the current system that MMOs use wouldn't be a popular and widely used as they are now. I think the majority of MMO players are actually those who prefer the road to becoming elite being put into the games as they are. After all, it's a path that anyone can follow if they have the time and gumption to do so. I think that elites and the status thereof are actually important to the game. It gives other players something to aspire to.

[Reynhart]

After all, it's a path that anyone can follow if they have the time and gumption to do so.

Isn't that sad for a game to require "time" over "skill" ?

[SkyeWindbinder]

Isn't that sad for a game to require "time" over "skill" ?

Actually, if an MMO does it right, it should require adequate amounts of both. You should be good enough in elite content to know what you're doing, and it should also not just be a one-shot run for elite rewards.

[Reynhart]

Actually, if an MMO does it right, it should require adequate amounts of both. You should be good enough in elite content to know what you're doing, and it should also not just be a one-shot run for elite rewards.

One shot can be justified if the run is really difficult. The Raven Nevermore always gave you the Earring, but you'd still deserved it.

For the dungeons or primals, you probably need severals items, so you'll be doing them more than once. But even if you don't have an item each time, you should have something that made you progress towards your goal.

Like 100% totem drop for Ifrit, or a token from CC/AV. Something a little better than "Thank you Player, but your drop is in another dungeon"

[SkyeWindbinder]

One shot can be justified if the run is really difficult. The Raven Nevermore always gave you the Earring, but you'd still deserved it.

For the dungeons or primals, you probably need severals items, so you'll be doing them more than once. But even if you don't have an item each time, you should have something that made you progress towards your goal.

Like 100% totem drop for Ifrit, or a token from CC/AV. Something a little better than "Thank you Player, but your drop is in another dungeon"

The drops in dungeons like that are luck items. Even if you run the dungeon, you're not guaranteed to get what you want. And really, why should you be? True, you did difficult content. Good for you. But does that mean you should automatically get that fancy glowing super-dee-duper uber staff that you want? Not necessarily. In a dungeon run, some people might get what they desire. Some people won't. That's the way it goes. Why should that change just because a few people want a faster, more guaranteed path to getting what they want? Everyone has the same chance at getting the item, but at the same time, the luck factor is still there, and should stay there. It's what makes getting the drop even more satisfying, knowing that of all the things that could have dropped, the thing you wanted dropped, and you actually got it in a roll against your team mates.

It's kind of like treasure hunting. Yeah, it's hard work, going through a tomb or dungeon, avoiding traps and fighting wildlife and all that, but the thought of getting to the end and finding a pile of gold and jewels from ancient times makes the work worth it. Then you reach a chamber, there might be valuable things there, there might not be. If there is, lucky you! If not, then keep searching the tomb till you (hopefully) find what you want. You don't just quit and say "I went through all that work to get to this point, and the ancient rulers of this crypt didn't even bother to leave some gold around in this room! Screw this, it's not worth it! I'm going to go raid a pawn shop, where I'm guaranteed to get some gold for my troubles!" The luck factor makes getting the reward all the more special.

[KoujiGeki]

Isn't that sad for a game to require "time" over "skill" ?

no it should be equal if not more time. My favorite thing about MMOs are they can take YEARS to actually beat everything. I love games with good stories that are really long cause if you could beat all the content fast how fun could that be. unless your the person who also complains about how primal drops should be 100%. Like 11, well not so much now but when level caps and all that crap existed. If it didnt the game would be beaten in a week then all the players who beat everything leave and the new player who cant learn how to do stuff get screwed. game dies.

Perfect example CoP in 11, the pinnacle of perfection, Hard content that you couldnt just breeze through you know like walking through The shrouded maw but instead of not crammed full of trees that would one shot you just a bunch of tough mobs that you had to remain alert about in the Promiviyons. Tough bosses fights that yes required some items but very decent strategies to fight most of them that you could do with any jobs. But yes there was elitism there with people only wanting to do it the cookie cutting way.

[Reynhart]

Perfect example CoP in 11, the pinnacle of perfection, Hard content that you couldnt just breeze through you know like walking through The shrouded maw but instead of not crammed full of trees that would one shot you just a bunch of tough mobs that you had to remain alert about in the Promiviyons. Tough bosses fights that yes required some items but very decent strategies to fight most of them that you could do with any jobs. But yes there was elitism there with people only wanting to do it the cookie cutting way.

What you describe is precisely NOT "time centered". Of course it takes time to do all the CoP missions, but it's because it's "hard content". You had to know how to play to go through Promyvions, Sacrarium, etc...
When you beat the last mission, you're sure to gain one ring. When you beat Apocalypse Nigh, you're sure to gain one earring, so we're talking about 100% reward to a difficult fight. That's totally "skill based reward".

In XIV, beating Ifrit or winning an hamlet defense were not THAT hard. But most of the times, you gained absolutely nothing from it.

Like I said in my first post on this thread, people think "Elite = Hardcore". That's wrong. When the OP talks about elitism, he clearly say "Invite casual players".
There's nothing to prevent differences between "good" players and "bad" players, and that's normal.
But "time centered rewards" favors Hardcore player upon casual players, no matter how good or bad they are.

[KoujiGeki]

What you describe is precisely NOT "time centered". Of course it takes time to do all the CoP missions, but it's because it's "hard content". You had to know how to play to go through Promyvions, Sacrarium, etc...
When you beat the last mission, you're sure to gain one ring. When you beat Apocalypse Nigh, you're sure to gain one earring, so we're talking about 100% reward to a difficult fight. That's totally "skill based reward".

In XIV, beating Ifrit or winning an hamlet defense were not THAT hard. But most of the times, you gained absolutely nothing from it.

Like I said in my first post on this thread, people think "Elite = Hardcore". That's wrong. When the OP talks about elitism, he clearly say "Invite casual players".
There's nothing to prevent differences between "good" players and "bad" players, and that's normal.
But "time centered rewards" favors Hardcore player upon casual players, no matter how good or bad they are.

It was time centered becuase you couldn't beat CoP with only a week of effort, and CoP didnt only offer a Ring, it offered a Swift belt and Soboro and other Items that were extremely useful and were hard to get that you couldnt get one first tries escepially if you had whole groups who wanted the item and your turn finally come to pop the item and it doesnt drop your lucky by the time the whole group goes if they actually stayed to help you.

The Garuda fight probably did the best job of trying this (post BLM zerg nerf obviously). It's perfectly viable to do the fight with 1 of each class, plus probably another BRD for plumes as the 8th.

Yes but Garuda is a the factor here also im happy that when my shell beat garuda it wasnt the way all the elitst said it was the only way to be done. but like my brother always uses what happens when they add Titan and Ramuh Blm is screwed if they dont improve the fire and ice lines.