Counter to Elitism

[KaiTBF]

Ok, I give up.

Liar.

Also, I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that low drop rates make content challenging (though repeating content hundreds of times making one a better player is another thing entirely seeing as humans learn best through repetition. E.G. a skilled welder is skilled because he's practiced welding for 10 years. This is of course taking geniuses out of the picture because they wouldn't really be geniuses if they were so common that we could consider it the norm. Also skill in an mmo is really subjective to begin with, and ""being a good player" is so subjective that we could spend hours arguing about it, so let's not bring that up again.) Anyways, back to what I was saying. What most of us are trying to tell you isn't that we think random number generated drop rates makes content challenging, but that they're necessary to give the dev team time to develop other content, and to keep people playing. As of right now a rng is the best way to suck up your time (which we already covered as being priority #1) and no one, including yourself, has proposed an alternate system that could work for the standard MMO and make the black hole that eats all of our time and money any more enjoyable than it is. I will agree however that drop rates don't need to be as horrendous as they are.

Also... no one I know ever considered killing the Valkrum Emperor a challenge, the only challenging part was getting claim. Most people just considered camping the stupid lizard and fly a huge pain in the ass.

[Reynhart]

Liar.

You're right, I should really stop posting for nothing

What most of us are trying to tell you isn't that we think random number generated drop rates makes content challenging

Wrong. Maybe not everyone in this thread, but I posted on other threads, and a lot of people told me that content is "hard because it dropped few"

but that they're necessary to give the dev team time to develop other content, and to keep people playing.

I don't think so. If they design more content like "The Raven Nevermore", they'd have plenty of time to come up with new ideas before everyone on each server managed to beat it.

As of right now a rng is the best way to suck up your time (which we already covered as being priority #1) and no one, including yourself, has proposed an alternate system that could work for the standard MMO and make the black hole that eats all of our time and money any more enjoyable than it is.

More difficult fights, steadily but surely building your way up for the items. These are, IMO, two ways that are far better than RNG supremacy.

Also... no one I know ever considered killing the Valkrum Emperor a challenge, the only challenging part was getting claim. Most people just considered camping the stupid lizard and fly a huge pain in the ass.

I didn't say "killing the Valkurm Emperor" is a challenge" but "obtaining the Empress Hairpin".

The worst part of this is, as long as we support RNG mechanics and repeating content, developpers will still design their games that way. After all, if it still works, why would they push themselves too hard to bring something else ?

[ispano]

I don't think so. If they design more content like "The Raven Nevermore", they'd have plenty of time to come up with new ideas before everyone on each server managed to beat it.

The problem with this is if they make it that difficult, most WON'T beat it ever. There's a reason Blizzard "dumbed down" alot of end game stuff after it gets released, because they didn't feel enough people got to experience it. There's a lot of people, like I said before, who just won't put in the time and effort to get really good and just want the game to be laid back. But when they can't do parts of it due to that, they don't play. And SE wants to attract some of these people.

I see it more and more these days, the mentality of people growing up and playing games. Not all of them mind you, but many. My nephew for example, I introduced him to some SNES games I had(played via EMU though) He liked many of them, but gave up on them just a few minutes in for being "too hard". And I see this everywhere I go just about.

[MicahZerrshia]

I see it more and more these days, the mentality of people growing up and playing games. Not all of them mind you, but many. My nephew for example, I introduced him to some SNES games I had(played via EMU though) He liked many of them, but gave up on them just a few minutes in for being "too hard". And I see this everywhere I go just about.

To many games have god-mode either standard or built in. Back in the nes/snes days games were as you got them and the only way to god-mode it was to use something like a game genie, but even then no one considered it a real win unless you did it without cheats.

FFXI is the same way, its all about the zerg now with the highest reward. No one wants to work for anything anymore. Personally I blame the parents who dont foster competition and give the same rewards to everyone regardless of effort cause "every child should be a winner". These more spoiled generations are growing up now and we are seeing this mentality seeping into everything from gaming to the work force.

[Renen]

The problem with this is if they make it that difficult, most WON'T beat it ever. There's a reason Blizzard "dumbed down" alot of end game stuff after it gets released, because they didn't feel enough people got to experience it. There's a lot of people, like I said before, who just won't put in the time and effort to get really good and just want the game to be laid back. But when they can't do parts of it due to that, they don't play. And SE wants to attract some of these people.

I see it more and more these days, the mentality of people growing up and playing games. Not all of them mind you, but many. My nephew for example, I introduced him to some SNES games I had(played via EMU though) He liked many of them, but gave up on them just a few minutes in for being "too hard". And I see this everywhere I go just about.

I disagree. I have not been able to beet raven nevermore, but I think its still a great fight. And its MUCH more satisfying to get "Yes! We beat the hard boss and got the 100% drop" than "Oh finally... The easiest boss's RNG FINALLY gave me the drop"

i think they are the people who lose to chill penguin. Or think that FF13 is better than the older FF.

FF12 122333 challenge is best :-)

[ispano]

That's also part of the problem. What some see as challenging, others see as too hard. Then even others see it as something simple.

You see people wanting a "challenge" vs random chance and such in an MMO, and while I understand that one can have the ability to see a problem yet not have the ability to come up with a proper solution, it's all too difficult to come up with something, yet still attract enough people. The more FPS/Twitch you make the game, the less people will play. The more you deviate from what people are used to, the less people will play.

You then also have people that want their games to be "laid back" and/or have little effort, because if it involves work or effort they feel like it's a job. But on the other hand, you have people like me and others who feel if no effort is put in, there's no enjoyment. Then you have the ones that without a reward, it's not fun at all.

Coming up with a new working idea is actually far more difficult than some people realize.

EDIT: Also, random is not meant to replace challenge. It's there so it slows things down a bit. If you could get something every run for sure, well your party anyhow, it would take very little time til you stopped doing it. But even then, for some it IS challenging for some. Maybe they don't have the time to play all the time, so being able to get enough runs in for RNG to smile on them is difficult. It's like most things, an example: keeping a secret, for some they can do it forever, some find it difficult NOT to reveal it.

[Reynhart]

If you could get something every run for sure, well your party anyhow, it would take very little time til you stopped doing it.

So how come everyone doesn't have the White Ravens ? Because they got their ass kicked hard by Nael.

By progressins through challenge, you could also build steadily your way to the best items.
AF aren't hard, so you start with this.
Grand companies items aren't hard too, but a bit longer, so with your AF, you'll gather enough company seals
Beastmen strongholds are a bit harder, so with GC Set, you'll hunt for these items.
Ifrit is yet harder than the strongholds, so with your drops, you'll fight it, then Garuda, then the dungeons, etc...

You won't hunt directly for the best items, because it'll be too difficult.

[ispano]

So how come everyone doesn't have the White Ravens ? Because they got their ass kicked hard by Nael.

By progressins through challenge, you could also build steadily your way to the best items.
AF aren't hard, so you start with this.
Grand companies items aren't hard too, but a bit longer, so with your AF, you'll gather enough company seals
Beastmen strongholds are a bit harder, so with GC Set, you'll hunt for these items.
Ifrit is yet harder than the strongholds, so with your drops, you'll fight it, then Garuda, then the dungeons, etc...

You won't hunt directly for the best items, because it'll be too difficult.

Because you also have to realize that a large part of the community gets upset when they can't do something without putting in a lot of effort. I understand the working your way up and bettering yourself mentality. But much of the community they're trying to appeal to doesn't seem to like playing that way.

[Reynhart]

Because you also have to realize that a large part of the community gets upset when they can't do something without putting in a lot of effort.

I really like your sentence. If one don't want to "put a lot of effort" in one's reward, then this game is not for him/her, be it "very difficult fights with guaranteed reward" or "ridiculous drop rate so that you have to repeat dungeons and fights over and over"

These people think that they'll hit the 1% drop on their first run, and will get bored pretty quick when confronted to the real thing.

It's almost as if they say "I don't want to work so I can steadily build my income...I'd rather play the lottery over and over, I'm confident I will win"

[ispano]

I really like your sentence. If one don't want to "put a lot of effort" in one's reward, then this game is not for him/her, be it "very difficult fights with guaranteed reward" or "ridiculous drop rate so that you have to repeat dungeons and fights over and over"

These people think that they'll hit the 1% drop on their first run, and will get bored pretty quick when confronted to the real thing.

But you see, SE is trying to appeal to a much larger player base, which includes those people. You'll almost never convince people to change the way they play or that the game is not for them. If they "like" other parts of the game, they want it to appeal to them and many want it changed to do so. Most people i've seen don't quite "get" the fact that some games may not be for them, they'd rather have them changed.