Dedicated Servers?

[Abriael]

Setting the personal jabs aside, since they're amusing but tend to become tiresome in the end...

I don't like big communities!

Then don't play a MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online RPG.

Mind you, you're perfectly able to create your little tightly knit community regardless of the number of people on the server or with access to the server. That's what linkshells and free companies are for.

So your idea for community building is worse than this "terribad" (aren't you supposed to be a reporter? why don't you write in English?) idea.

Because at the moment I'm not working (and English is not my first language anyway, mind you, not that it matters)?

And about the development costs and times and patch testing, well, I happen to know a little about software development and balancing systems, and I will tell you that if you are not able to test thousands of different configurations for your system in short times, you are doing something terribly wrong. And I'm pretty sure Yoshida and Square Enix have a long experience balancing games, so no, if the core of the game is well defined and the different rule sets only affect the context, they probably wouldn't even have to balance anything new for every new patch.

You know a little about software development of MMORPGs? I'm afraid it's not the same thing. MMORPGs are extremely complex animals, with thousands of elements interacting with each other.

If you aren't able to "test thousands of different configurations for your system in short times" you're simply developing something more complex than a database.

There's a reason why MMORPGs are released with a massive amount of glitches and problems compared to other games. And that reason resides in their complexity, that impacts balancing, testing and every other area of development in a rather large way.

But again. This thread is definitely moot. I know it won't happen. You know it won't happen. The OP knows it won't happen. And it's ultimately a very good thing that it won't happen.

[Dannythm]

Setting the personal jabs aside, since they're amusing but tend to become tiresome in the end...

It was not a personal jab, it was a honest advise so posting in the Lodestone get's overall better and constructive.

Then don't play a MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online RPG.

Mind you, you're perfectly able to create your little tightly knit community regardless of the number of people on the server or with access to the server. That's what linkshells and free companies are for.

5000 people for each server is massive for any game world and it can help create a good community, but having a mega-server or something among those lines with 25k+ people makes it harder. And I think it's easier to build a good LS when the overall community is smaller and the game content is harder than in a casual environment with thousands of people, but to each it's own.

You know a little about software development of MMORPGs? I'm afraid it's not the same thing. MMORPGs are extremely complex animals, with thousands of elements interacting with each other.

If you aren't able to "test thousands of different configurations for your system in short times" you're simply developing something more complex than a database.

There's a reason why MMORPGs are released with a massive amount of glitches and problems compared to other games. And that reason resides in their complexity, that impacts balancing, testing and every other area of development in a rather large way.

I work with systems way more complex than MMO's daily, and I assure you those are not just databases, so I know quite well how all the processes involved in developing, deploying, configuring, testing and teaching to use any given system involve, this is why I tell you, if SE knows their stuff, and I'm pretty sure they know, if they do this they will do it all right. I could start a long techie post as why I think this won't involve much effort and cost development even when delivering new content, but I don't think much people could appreciate it.

But again. This thread is definitely moot. I know it won't happen. You know it won't happen. The OP knows it won't happen. And it's ultimately a very good thing that it won't happen.

And because it won't happen it's not worth discussing? What happens with freedom of speech man! If you don't like this, don't read it and don't comment on it. It's not right that OP had to put this in his thread:

so thought i'd throw out an idea i had, this will be my 3rd thread and my last 2 were a flunk and this one probably will be as well lol. but i figure maybe it's a good idea that people would like to see.

...

i'ma probably have like 4players in this thread at all and they will all say they hate the idea like my other 2 ideas lmao but i figure this has got to be a really good idea and concept that all mmo's can take a step back and look at as being part of any mmo. what you guys think? would you like this or no and why the heck not?

[strallaalaa]

lol sorry this became huge wall of text, was sleep when half the pages went threw and i'm just adding my thing about most of them.

there's only 2 reasons i can think of that it wouldn't happen with newer mmo's. 1. the devs know that the mmo's they release are mediocre compared to the ones they used to provide us even 10years ago. or 2. it's not that the servers will be empty, personally i think they will succeed and the reality is the normal servers will die out faster. when you take the players willing to play in slower progression servers out the equation your left with basically the players that no matter how easy or quick the game play is they wait for others to put things together for them.

either way the idea that dividing us is bad as a community is buttkis, reality check they are still doing this. it's called the game is going f2p and half or more of the community quit the mmo all together. everyone is looking for a game to play long term or they are just locus just running threw it and will quit anyway. choices only give a mmo more people to satisfy and more subs to gain from. your diluted in mind if you think a server that has even half my suggested changes wouldn't be a full server. those ideas are basically the soul of what ffxi was. they don't need to be all or any of those but i think SE as a company would know what type of players play mmo's and what they want right? or do they? or do they care? the difference in creating a mmo with and without this idea is keeping tons of players. who is to say witch type of servers would do the best? obviously the devs keep making games that go f2p so obviously they don't. and it's the players that keep leaving though they are getting exactly what they want, so they don't either. and lol that is another side thought. if ffxiv fails the mmo world finally knows for a fact that people on these forums don't know what they want or what they are talking about and devs should never listen to them as much as they did here. lol. oh lastly on segregation, how does having to play a mmo for years rather then quit in 6months segregate rather then build. ffxi had the best community i have ever ever had in any mmo and ffxiv comes second to that.

how can people say only the RP server is needed? why would you get what you want? lol, also check any pvp thread and every other person says this, as long as pvp doesn't effect me. and yes in ffxiv pvp won't effect you, but in a lot of mmo's it could and they separate servers "just for you!". you don't want to die while you solo or whatever, i don't want to solo, period, i don't want fast progression, period. why not a server that adds this? there is no reason to not less you think it will change your game play. and that is just selfish. what is the worst that happens they have to close half the servers? lol "oh wait" that is every mmo anyway.

and it doesn't necessarily need to segregate us, longer progression servers can still autogroup with other servers for content if wanted. and as for not being able to transfer your account to those from easier server type that just means it probably took you what a month to level. it shouldn't be a problem to have 2 accounts ..they can give us 1 free account on all servers. what have you. either way what do you think all solo play does? it segragates, auto grouping also ruins lots of guilds/linkshell community grouping up together but that's there too. it's mentality here folks not that anything i have suggested is wrong or bad idea.

also i do agree, no servers is better then many. i love the idea of 1 mega server for mmo's and freely going to any of them. but it won't destroy my game play and enjoyment less it's regional division. "ohh wait" ... also i dunno about others but i'd pay an extra few bucks a month to play on a dedicated server, so this can be a way to try this out and make a few bucks too. though that is just me.

though your all right i don't even think something like this will happen, but as every mmo for "another" 10 years fails and goes f2p then i can sit on my high horse and say i told you so. there is a reason why tv shows get canceled every other minute, they aren't a quick 2hour movie. you have to watch every week(aka our subs) and you can't please the numbers they want for them cause we are all different ...and yeah they can keep making the quick bucks off the majority but it will never be a successful mmo that way. in reality the devs are probably only on one true mission right now and that is to get as many people and as much of the rmt cash flow into there pockets.

they don't care about nitch mmo's or the people they have pushed to the side. there are mmo's being made at kickstarter.com ..there is one that made almost 4million dollars in donations http://eternity.obsidian.net/ 73.986 backers in a few months to make that 4.3 million to create a mmo type that isn't being made any more these days. though it's not quit what i was looking for (ffxi'ish) it just shows how many are out there that want what we are not getting. so in the end, weather this can be an option for a mmo company or not, it's not cause there isn't the people that support it.

[Abriael]

It was not a personal jab, it was a honest advise so posting in the Lodestone get's overall better and constructive.

It was a personal jab. And since you imply a change in my way of expressing myself, that never happened, also a not very realistic one. I always expressed concepts in a very direct, straightforward and clear cut way (without insulting and personally attacking anyone. Some do feel quite dumb after I dismantle their arguments, but that's not really my fault) and that never changed. Some can take it. Some cannot. That's life. Anyway. Moving on.

5000 people for each server is massive for any game world and it can help create a good community, but having a mega-server or something among those lines with 25k+ people makes it harder. And I think it's easier to build a good LS when the overall community is smaller and the game content is harder than in a casual environment with thousands of people, but to each it's own.

EVE Online is the perfect example of the fact that strong, close-knit communities can easily be built on large servers. As a matter of fact the EVE community is one of the strongest on the internet (strong enough to put the developer on its collective knees when it crossed the community), and it has within itself some of the strongest sub-communities as well.

And it doesn't have 25k people on the same server. It has around 400k. Communities are modular, and the upper limit doesn't influence in any way the ability to community-build. As a matter of fact, the bigger the pool, the higher the chance that you'll meet more like-minded people with which to form a strong bond.

I work with systems way more complex than MMO's daily, and I assure you those are not just databases, so I know quite well how all the processes involved in developing, deploying, configuring, testing and teaching to use any given system involve, this is why I tell you, if SE knows their stuff, and I'm pretty sure they know, if they do this they will do it all right. I could start a long techie post as why I think this won't involve much effort and cost development even when delivering new content, but I don't think much people could appreciate it.

You could sure start a long techie post, and it wouldn't have anything to do with this topic, because unless you develop MMORPGs, or are in close contact with people that do, developing other kinds of software gives you absolutely no experience in MMORPG development.

And because it won't happen it's not worth discussing? What happens with freedom of speech man! If you don't like this, don't read it and don't comment on it. It's not right that OP had to put this in his thread:

Not worth discussing != you can't discuss it. Go ahead and discuss it as much as you like. I know worse ways to waste time. That's for sure.

Huge, not very readable wall of text

Only that the fact that MMORPGs fail has absolutely nothing to do with their server structure. So yeah, you can sit on your "high horse" and say "i told you so", but you would simply be wrong.

Mind you, one of the main reasons MMORPGs "fail" is that bleeding players tends to have a slippery slope effect. When you start losing players for any reasons (and MMORPG *always* lose a sizable number of players after the first free month), other players notice less people playing the game in their servers and have less people to play with. The result is that they start to feel less enthusiastic about the game and more bored. Some of those players leave. Those remaining continue to feels the same effect, but amplified by the fact that now there are even less players, and so forth.

Lowering server populations are one of the primary causes of "failure" of any MMORPG, and the more you fragment the servers between different rulesets, the lower server populations will be, especially on the more niche rulesets.

So yeah, your proposal would *accelerate* failure.

Oh, and Project Eternity is a single player RPG, not a MMO.

[Dannythm]

...

Even though I don't agree with the megaserver thing, for the rest of your post you deserve a badge.

You are right, the important thing for Square should not be to reach short term profit and grab the people that would leave the game whatever it does do, but build a game that will endure get a not so big but strong and permanent player base, like FFXI did. Probably the same formula as FFXI won't work in this day and age, but the desired result is the same.

Also giving different server choices would really tell what people like and want, looking at how many servers of each kind are required.

On to your secondary thoughts, yeah, communities are not developers, and in most cases, (in everything that requires satisfying a customer), the customer know that they want/need something, but don't know what he is really looking for, so if ARR fails, then I don't think developers would listen to their communities like Yoshi P did in a long long time.

Edit: To Abriael, if this forum had private messages I'd continue our exchange through there as it would be highly off-topic keeping it here.

[Alhanelem]

Not False, of course PVP seems will be much bigger than XI but still not the main content like others game. Coliseum will be just an hobby for who want and the frontier (that we don't know anything) will be the only mass pvp will be in game.

So for this reason FFXIV still remain PVE oriented, with some PVP just for fun ^^

Actually, you're wrong. it is going to be "main content." just not open world. It's going to be a lot more than the minigame or "hobby" it was in XI. You won't be forced into participating against your will and it will take place in isolated areas, but it's not going to be trivial.

XIV won't be "oriented" any particular way. Yoshida is aiming to inlcude content for every type of player, not just one type. It was spoken of certain battlegrounds which open PvE content for different factions depending on the outcomes of the battles. FFXIV's PvP is not going to be Ballista, or dueling. It is currently appearing to be more like WoW battlegrounds which have rewards and such. Know what you're talking about before you post about it. Yoshida is a self proclaimed fan of PvP and intends for it to be more than just a sideshow.

EVE Online is the perfect example of the fact that strong, close-knit communities can easily be built on large servers. As a matter of fact the EVE community is one of the strongest on the internet (strong enough to put the developer on its collective knees when it crossed the community)

this couldnt be made a more subjective statement if you tried. I've heard and read about a lot of BS going on in that game, leaders of corporations taking shit and running, backstabbing eachother over drama outside of the game, etc. the same kind of drama, instability and nonsense that every online game has.

What happens with freedom of speech man!

Just FYI, freedom of speech does not exist on a privately held discussion forum. SE does have and can use the power to suppress speech on these forums, because they own them. When you sign up, you agree to be bound by certain rules. Not saying that you're breaking them, but you need to understand that free speech does not exist here. This isn't the United States, this is the FFXIV Forum.

[Abriael]

Actually, you're wrong. it is going to be "main content." just not open world. It's going to be a lot more than the minigame or "hobby" it was in XI.

XIV won't be "oriented" any particular way. Yoshida is aiming to inlcude content for every type of player, not just one type.

Actually, neither of you is right because we know *nothing* of the frontier, so we have absolutely no idea on how relevant it will be.

It seems to me that you're both talking out of wishful thinking. IE: saying that PvP will be what you hope will be. But neither Yoshida nor others ever gave solid info on that, other than a very general overview that made no mention of its scope or relevancy.

[Dannythm]

Actually, neither of you is right because we know *nothing* of the frontier, so we have absolutely no idea on how relevant it will be.

It seems to me that you're both talking out of wishful thinking. IE: saying that PvP will be what you hope will be. But neither Yoshida nor others ever gave solid info on that, other than a very general overview that made no mention of its scope or relevancy.

I agree with you in this one, we know nothing about PvP yet, but something is for sure, if they don't balance sleepga, everyone will be BLM on the battlegrounds.

[Abriael]

this couldnt be made a more subjective statement if you tried. I've heard and read about a lot of BS going on in that game, leaders of corporations taking shit and running, backstabbing eachother over drama outside of the game, etc. the same kind of drama, instability and nonsense that every online game has.

"hearing" and "reading" doesn't really make up for experience. There's drama in every single MMORPG out there. EVE's drama just makes the news because the game is 100% a sandbox, and that lets people cook up some high level intrigue, espionage and theft that becomes newsworthy.

It has nothing to do with the community. As a matter of fact, it strengthens it. And strengthens the subcommunities within the game. The same people that steal each other's panties in game, drink beer and share jokes together every year at Fanfest.

[strallaalaa]

even though project eternity isn't a mmo but single player it still shows that there are tons of players out there that have to go threw other means just to get a game type that they like.

if SE today opened up a kickstarter today saying hey we are gonna create 2 mmo's with the same ffxiv engine, the normal ffxiv and a second one with same the same engine but it will be designed to be ffxi-2'ish but they need donations (pre purchases) of 4million dollars b4 we can make the second game. i bet you anything they will make there mark.

you can say there is a minority but naa, there is lots of players that would kill for a game designed with that old school type of mmo in mind.