Why the +/- Enmity stat needs to be abolished

[Frein]

I realize that this stat was added to allow tanks to scale up their enmity production in order to keep up with damage dealer gear progress, however, the current implementation is problematic for a few reasons:

1) Tanks are forced to choose between survival, or "tankyness", and the ability to hold hate. I don't think this is a choice most players particularly like to make. Currently all content favours focusing on holding hate because rewards are based on speed (AV, CC), defense isn't needed (Ifrit, Moogle), or because slow and steady makes things harder, not easier (Garuda).

2) +/- Enmity does nothing at all in PVP or other potential future content where hate mechanics are suppressed (such as a boss that completely ignores enmity).

3) As tank gear progression is split between survivability and increased enmity generation, in the long run tank enmity probably cannot keep up with DD gear progression anyway, as for them the sole purpose of every upgrade is to further increase damage output.

I would propose that abilities like Flash and Provoke scale based on one or more defensive stats, like Defense or their primary and secondary attributes. That way tanks can focus on simply being tanks. This would be similar to how WoW solves the problem.

[Mirage]

To tie flash and/or provoke to defensive stats sounds like a good idea.

How about provoke being modded by def and vit, while flash was modded by def and mnd?

In either case, it doesn't sound like a good idea for a job to rely on abilities that produce a static amount of enmity in a world where all other enmity generation is dynamic.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

1) balance between aggro generation and survivability is like balance for accuracy and offensive stats for melees and mages, nothing new here. If anything, defence it's a useless stat like is working now on bosses and highter level mobs. If you feel it wrong, ask to be reworked instead touching enmity+/-

2)And the problem is ? In every game with pve/pvp, people have 2 different sets with gear focused on pvp, what's the problem ?

3)look first answer. And actually in the long run, a proper tank never allow a dd to surpass it. You're looking to mistress, where dd go in full attack immediatly, or a soo-soo war

[Frein]

1) balance between aggro generation and survivability is like balance for accuracy and offensive stats for melees and mages, nothing new here. If anything, defence it's a useless stat like is working now on bosses and highter level mobs. If you feel it wrong, ask to be reworked instead touching enmity+/-

It's not the same at all. Accuracy is an offensive stat just like the rest of them and they all generally work under all circumstances. A damage dealer looks for the optimal distribution of stats to maximize his damage output, a tank looks for the optimal distribution of stats... to do what? To hold hate? Or to survive? They're two completely different choices.

2)And the problem is ? In every game with pve/pvp, people have 2 different sets with gear focused on pvp, what's the problem ?

No, in every game people don't have separate sets or at the very least there is much overlap potential. Not so with enmity, which does nothing at all if hate management is not relevant.

3)look first answer. And actually in the long run, a proper tank never allow a dd to surpass it. You're looking to mistress, where dd go in full attack immediatly, or a soo-soo war

This makes no sense to me.


@PSXpert2011

Your post reads like a combination of white knighting and nonsense. You don't even seem to have any arugments, only blind faith in SE's design. That worked really well in beta.

[Myrhn]

It's not the same at all. Accuracy is an offensive stat just like the rest of them and they all generally work under all circumstances. A damage dealer looks for the optimal distribution of stats to maximize his damage output, a tank looks for the optimal distribution of stats... to do what? To hold hate? Or to survive? They're two completely different choices.

A tank looks for optimal distribution of stats to hold hate and survive. If a tank can't survive and die there is a big chance that the whole party will die and if a tank can't hold hate there is a big chance that the whole party will die too, so in general a tank should aim for both of them and not just one of them.

[Frein]

A tank looks for optimal distribution of stats to hold hate and survive. If a tank can't survive and die there is a big chance that the whole party will die and if a tank can't hold hate there is a big chance that the whole party will die too, so in general a tank should aim for both of them and not just one of them.

Correct, but these goals are to some extent mutually exclusive while the ACC vs ATK goals are not. Every point of +Enmity means less DEF, VIT, HP and so on, but every point of ACC still means more damage even if ATK is sacrificed.

The more geared the DDs are the more the tank needs +Enmity to keep parity. The more +Enmity the tank has, the squishier he is. Therefore DD growth is linear while tank growth could in theory even reverse as far as survivability goes.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

It's not the same at all. Accuracy is an offensive stat just like the rest of them and they all generally work under all circumstances. A damage dealer looks for the optimal distribution of stats to maximize his damage output, a tank looks for the optimal distribution of stats... to do what? To hold hate? Or to survive? They're two completely different choices.


No, in every game people don't have separate sets or at the very least there is much overlap potential. Not so with enmity, which does nothing at all if hate management is not relevant.


This makes no sense to me.


@PSXpert2011

Your post reads like a combination of white knighting and nonsense. You don't even seem to have any arugments, only blind faith in SE's design. That worked really well in beta.

You posts are quite offensive for an harmless subject like enmity gear
-no, it's really the same. Accuracy help you missing less, which in a way is add attack. But when you stack much, it's pointless. It's the same with enmity+, when you reach a decent amount you don't add more.
Also, a tank (and a dd) neet to BALANCE his attributes. Going full enimy+ it's pointless like going full hp. Why ? Because you can have the best survivability gear on the road, but if you loose hate at first nuke, you're just useless.

-then i would ask you what game you play, because no good player would use pve gear in pvp...

-basicly, a good tank never loose enmity if you give him a min at beginning of fight, which don't happen in a couple of situations, but no more of that

[Frein]

Accuracy help you missing less, which in a way is add attack. But when you stack much, it's pointless. It's the same with enmity+, when you reach a decent amount you don't add more.

No, it's not the same. Yes, you will cap out on ACC, but the tank will in fact never cap out on +Enmity. This is because your ACC needs are based on the enemy you're fighting while the tank's +Enmity need is based on the gear level of the DDs. The enemy's stats do not change, the DDs' stats do.

Also, a tank (and a dd) neet to BALANCE his attributes. Going full enimy+ it's pointless like going full hp. Why ? Because you can have the best survivability gear on the road, but if you loose hate at first nuke, you're just useless.

Yes, and now you're in a rather unpleasant situation. If your full +Enmity set makes you too weak to survive, yet you find it necessary to keep up with DD enmity output, you've effectively capped DD progression. Even if the DDs outfit themselves with better gear, they will not be able to utilize it and will have to hold back because the tank can't keep up. The only way the tank would be able to keep up and allow the DDs to use their new gear would be to wear more +Enmity, but if he does that, he will not survive, so it's not an option.

-then i would ask you what game you play, because no good player would use pve gear in pvp...

WoW had (I guess still has) the most competitive MMO PVP scene ever and many times it was correct to wear PVE items to PVP. Likewise, the best PVP sets were often very good (though not the absolute best) for PVE.

-basicly, a good tank never loose enmity if you give him a min at beginning of fight, which don't happen in a couple of situations, but no more of that

There is no content in FFXIV where you'd want to give the tank a couple mins as you're always penalized for doing so. Besides, that's just another way of capping DD progression. If your DDs can't go all out from the get go to shave as many seconds from the fight as possible, what's the point of getting better gear for them? You'd just have to wait even longer for the tank to establish enough of a head start.

[Alaltus]

There is no content in FFXIV where you'd want to give the tank a couple mins as you're always penalized for doing so. Besides, that's just another way of capping DD progression. If your DDs can't go all out from the get go to shave as many seconds from the fight as possible, what's the point of getting better gear for them? You'd just have to wait even longer for the tank to establish enough of a head start.

Its as much the dd's job not to rip hate from the tank as it is the tanks job to keep it. Most jobs capable of dishing out damage have access to archer - emnity abilities so it goes without saying knowing when to use them and when to restrain yourself will go a long way in not getting yourself/your party killed. Coincounter for example has an emnity reset ability and if you as a dd just mindlessly aim for the highest numbers possible without regard for everything going on around you then your going to get hurt. There will be moments where you will be able to take full advantage of your dd gear but if you were able to all the time then you may as well just be on auto pilot.

A dd's emnity scales with the lv of the enemy it it is fighting as well as it's gear the stronger the enemy becomes the less emnity a dd will be getting where as a tanks emnity will always be the same when it comes to the hate abilities its using so it works both ways even with the best gear the melee dd may be playing catch up. It doesnt help at the moment that melee dd's and even tanks are particularly fragile making it harder for Pld's to take advantage of holy succor's intended use i.e to heal others and get more emnity from doing that. Maybe SE will bring out some more materia with dual stats like emnity and vit/hp so that you can invest in both a bit.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

No, it's not the same. Yes, you will cap out on ACC, but the tank will in fact never cap out on +Enmity. This is because your ACC needs are based on the enemy you're fighting while the tank's +Enmity need is based on the gear level of the DDs. The enemy's stats do not change, the DDs' stats do.


Yes, and now you're in a rather unpleasant situation. If your full +Enmity set makes you too weak to survive, yet you find it necessary to keep up with DD enmity output, you've effectively capped DD progression. Even if the DDs outfit themselves with better gear, they will not be able to utilize it and will have to hold back because the tank can't keep up. The only way the tank would be able to keep up and allow the DDs to use their new gear would be to wear more +Enmity, but if he does that, he will not survive, so it's not an option.


WoW had (I guess still has) the most competitive MMO PVP scene ever and many times it was correct to wear PVE items to PVP. Likewise, the best PVP sets were often very good (though not the absolute best) for PVE.


There is no content in FFXIV where you'd want to give the tank a couple mins as you're always penalized for doing so. Besides, that's just another way of capping DD progression. If your DDs can't go all out from the get go to shave as many seconds from the fight as possible, what's the point of getting better gear for them? You'd just have to wait even longer for the tank to establish enough of a head start.

you keep saying this, but it's wrong. There is no "cap" to enmity, because effect of enmity+ gear is percentage, not linear, differently from attack and accuracy. You don't need full enmity in every case. Balance it like a dd would do.
Also, tanks progress on gear too so you're point is futile. Since tanks don't rely entirely on flash and provoke to keep hate, but damage, they keep up with melee naturally every time they switch to a better weapon/gear.
also, LOL at wow as the most competitive pvp experience ever. the most unbalanced pvp experience ever maybe. Not a good comparison