Alpha First Look: Video 5 - Quests and Combat

[Darshu]

As someone already said before, I don't have to be a designer to critique game design. If it bothers a lot of people, you can be sure there's something to it that isn't right TO US. Now this someone has also been nice to share her thoughts on how it could be improved, plus The Secret World system as an example, which had been given before but was ignored. I think I did say most games do NOT have a good quest system, which is entirely the point. And you missed it.

There was a reply which said these quests, as described by her, were the main scenario quests. I have to disagree completely. 1.0 side quests were similar to that, but not the main scenario ones. And if levequests are already a go there, kill this, return, get reward system, why the hell do we need ANOTHER? We don't. Sidequests, like any other RPG you've played in the past are not EXP throw-away quests. MMOs introduced this as a means to fill the game with content. Mindless content. I'm not requiring 11 hours to complete a simple quest, Psykotsu, but again, the difficulty to argue with moderation in mind. It's either black or white. I also am of the opinion that those who have very little time to play should stay the hell away from MMORPGs. So implementing content for those people will never change the fact that they will not enjoy the game. Who would, doing one content over and over again for years, without ever being able to enjoy the game in it's entirety?

Now, why would you ever want to activate a quest to go kill a mob? If you want mindless work, go do the mindless work without a silly excuse that a NPC told you to do it, if you won't even bother to listen to its request.

Now I'm sorry, Hestern_Nestern, but most of what I've gotten on these forums so far was conformism, hate towards criticism and infantile responses trying to ridicule the critics, lack of good arguments to do so, mostly repeating what's been debunked over and over again, such as "This is only Alpha". I know my anger clouds some of my points to those who will take offense, but unfortunately I cannot help it. I thank you for your thoughtful reply, however.

I doubt that questing in general will be different. If they showed us the lower lv 10, 20 levequests from 1.0, we could have assumed correctly that that was going to be repeated throughout the game until lvs 40-50, as it was. It didn't change much. And that's the point of it, I think. To make it a standard, easy to get/complete quest, for level progression. The thing that bothers most people is that level progression is important, and should be made the most fun and interesting as possible. Yet, some people erroneously assume actually playing as a lv 50 is the most fun they'll have, and that they should be made to get there as fast as possible.

Battle is a main concern in a RPG game. I don't think 1% of you here denies it, or dislikes it even. We play RGPs because we enjoy fighting monsters as something other than real people. Every RPG in the past lvled you through battle, and if you didn't enjoy it, then it's hard to believe you're here playing XIV. Some may like battle more than others, who also enjoy a good story, mini games, humor, cutscenes. But you have to enjoy battle to some degree. You also have to enjoy a challenge. Until now, games were meant to challenge us, some more, some less. But challenge already means getting you our of your comfort zone. Questing like that doesn't. It doesn't require you to play your role well in a battle, and it doesn't require you to interact with other players in a battle (note how I said _require_). Requiring it is important to make something engaging. If battles are important, questing is the main mode of lv progression, and questing isn't engaging, the game is pretty much screwed.

Battles in XI were the best a MMO has ever had. You can all disagree or argue with me, but no other game I know ever challenged you in such a way. You had to know your job to really succeed, you had to know everyone else's jobs, be aware of a lot of stuff. It was tense, engaging and rewarding when done right. It was also time consuming. I've reached high lv characters in most other games I played, and I never knew their role to the extent I knew mine in XI (because I didn't need to). Nor have I ever encountered difficulty when lvling in any of those games to the point I had to stop everything else and really focus. Arguing that XI's battle is not harder than others is silly. I don't think it can be denied.

But what does that difficulty accomplish? It bonds you to the players you're partying with. As someone else has mentioned here, XI parties were incredibly social. The game's social aspect was deep because of it. There was much frustration in the dunes, qufim, citadel. It was also memorable when you succeeded. I'm sure those who've played through that have very vivid, fond memories of great parties, more than they have of any other game. Now, how many memories can you really get out of lvling from 1 to 50 through a questing system such as this? Remember, this is not something you can just ignore, it's the main way of lv progression.

Did you not enjoy fighting in past games? Is fighting not a main aspect of a MMORPG? Then how can you prefer quest grinding, where you put little effort into your job and battles are usually fast and easy, over party based monster grinding, where you will put all of your skills to use, feel useful, have your new equipment put to the test, tighten bonds with party mates? This isn't supposed to be quest grinding over RO style of monster grinding, even though I personally would prefer that even over quest grinding, mainly because it was very challenging if you wanted a good exp rate. I think my main point and concern is quest grinding is rarely ever challenging. And if this is the main way through which we will evolve, then it can't be dismissed with arguments such as "Not every content has to be challenging". SURE! Make sidequests relaxing, interesting, about exploration, with minigames, or easy battles with a nice story (just the way it was in 1.0). Because those we CAN avoid and won't be doing them much if we don't want to. Make levequests easy and fast to get through, just the way it was in 1.0. But not the main tool of lvling up.

Do you honestly enjoy the quests that were shown in the video? I'd love to hear each and everyone of you defending this system to tell me you actually enjoy those specific quests. If you don't, then you must be expecting something different later, and I don't think it will happen for those quests.

Now I agree parties in XIV were boring, not social, and way too fast and easy to develop any skills with your job. People ended up honing or even learning their skills with their job in Dzamael or Ifrit, which is bad. Battles should be way more engaging than what the end of 1.0 proved to be. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening either.

I'll stress this once so that it can be clear. I don't want another XI. My first disappointment with XIV was the fact they were mimicking the races of XI (similarities ended there, though). But I'm not expecting an XI-2.

Making quests harder and taking away the hand holding, or at least introducing something to the quests which can only be perceived through the quest text would actually encourage players to read it. You can never force anyone to read the quest text, unless you make it so the quest text is the only clue giver, and you take out map indications. Now, since most people will obviously be against this, because it's not "standardized" and up to the current mmo market? or whatever excuse they'll give, at least they could implement something in the text that makes a difference to those who read it to complete it (lore is not a benefit when quests are as bland and uninteresting as those). There's a difference in posture when you care more about those who don't read instead of caring about those who do read. If you make it so reading is required, those who don't simply open up a wiki and complete the quest. But THEY have to do the extra effort, because they're the lazy uninterested people. Destroying difficult quests altogether so that the lazy people can complete it in game is a slap to the faces of those who enjoy an engaging story in a simple quest. They're not losing anything opening up a wiki, but we are with all the hand holding. You're just making it easier for the lazy.

A direct response to someone who clearly missed the point.

Oh look! One of THOSE responses. Let me spell it out for you bro. Not doing this (standardizing the game to the current market) and releasing 1.0 in such a pathetic state, was what made Xiv 1.0 a fail pretty much everywhere.

A game released in such a state doesn't need ANYTHING else to fail. In fact, you'll overlook everything when you can't get a single item fast from the market, your map doesn't work, your UI takes hours to load, and you crash every 30 minutes. Standardizing it was never mentioned as a major flaw in any review.

[Kiote]

I had this discussion with someone I work with who plays MMO's too. He likes to have statics and doesn't really converse with anyone he doesnt consider good at the game, but somehow calls the people he statics with 'Friends'. Thats not being a real friend, and if the people who you place the term friend on think the same way, they dont think of you as a real friend. They are simply party members. Conversing and partying only with skilled people means you simply want some tools to help your character data progress. You are all just useing each other for your own personal gains, thats not something friends do to each other...

I tell him all the time "They aren't your friends, they are just your business partners", and the stories of needless dungeon party drama over this drop or priortizing who gets their weapon crafted first proves my points with him.

The only real friends are the people who talk with you about things other than game related discussion, and will talk with you regardless of your skill.

I see your point and acknowledge that I failed to separate two different things.

While I was pointing out that I personally was invited to groups because of a recognition of skill, I failed to mention that Skill is not a requirement for me to invite people to my groups.

I like to make a lot of friends in these games, but I don't just invite every random person to my Linkshell. If during some party event I get a long with someone, and they demonstrate they're not an obnoxious jerk, I will gladly invite them to my Linkshell, regardless of skill, playtime or level. If they join, then we get to become real friends. If they do not, maybe I'll see them again sometime.

I believe in helping others get better and I will never exclude someone because they aren't good enough yet. People don't get better until they get to try. I'm willing to fail at a Raid or Boss fight a hundred times if it means everyone gets to participate.

[Andrien]

Okay.. I'm back to see whats new, and now people are writing blog post, and slandering people game styles.

About the whole quest debate, the fact of the matter is Yoshi-P wants to draw in people that never played MMORPGs before. That is including the diehard Final Fantasy fans that is not used to playing MMORPGs. That is right folks, the fans of the Final Fantasy franchise. We on the forums are just 3% of the entire FFXIV community, and the numbers for the entire Final Fantasy fanbase is much more greater than us combined. This game is going on the PS3 console, so things have to be accessible, and not frustrating or else points is going to be taken off.

With that said, games these days can get bad reviews for boring repetitiveness. That can be avoided if the content is rewarding, and gives you a sense of progress for both casuals and hardcore. With that the fun factor will be there, and that will give the game positive marks on content.

Not sure what to tell everyone, but I hope the developers keep up the good work. I understand the demo is a short 5min Lv15ish quest. It is just what I expect from those levels.

[Rutelor]

Please explain, oh glorious MMO designer, how sidequests should be implemented. Are we to expect Yoshi-P and all of Square Enix to churn out hundreds of hour-long quests with fully-voiced cutscenes? Should every single quest be as cryptic as a Myst game and feature unclear objectives so that we're constantly ALT-TABing between the game and http://www.eorzeapedia.com/ to see where to go next?

What's wrong with having a healthy supply of mini-quests that have meaningful EXP and Gil rewards? How else are you supplement the game's primary content (Raids, story missions, PVP, FATEs, Hamlet Defense, etc) to ensure that players will gradually develop their characters, especially with a Leve allowance reset? What's wrong with simple conveniences like map markers? And what makes you think that every quest is as simple as the ones featured in the video? I bet some of our lucky Alpha players could tell you that some quests actually more meaty and varied than you think...

Just remember what was achieved by chastising the critics during the ß for version 1. We have a right to demand a challenging, engaging game for all the energy we have spent.

Let's, of course, remember not to be destructive in our criticism. But let's not be destructive of those who criticize either; this, even if they show more frustration than we like to see, for frustration is difficult to contain, after this long wait. This is my firm belief: If we do not heed the critics because they strike us as strident, we'll be throwing out the proverbial baby with the bath water.

[Rutelor]

what they are doing here is *gasp* making the game up to standards. congratulations on missing the point.

Are you sure you didn't mean "bringing the game down to standards"?

When the improved version is less imaginative, less engaging than we rightfully expect, when in fact it seems like involution, like we went backwards, then we should speak up!

It might very well be too late, but who knows...? maybe not. I, and I'm sure I'm far from alone here, want to avoid the feeling of having waited for so long to play a game I already played and didn't really like!

[ZakarnRosewood]

Lol, i found a great pic for this thread from the FFXIV meme thread.

[Ralos]

As previously mentioned by others, I don't like that the "moist depression" is named and the tons of indicators for where we're supposed to go in each quest is a bit too much hand-holding but I still like the style of the quests itself. For starting quests, I don't mind the simplicity of it. I'd like to see how they make quests more fun and engaging in the future (I.E. Less cookie cutter.) Further, having quests that require you to actually pay attention to who you're talking to and what they're saying so you know where to go/what to do would be preferable to "skip skip skip skip -> follow map indicator"

[strallaalaa]

[Belgarion]

something i cant wrap my mind around, is why peole start to hate a game that is still in development and testingphase. Its a Alpha quest for crying out loud, even i can see the tester/player is way to overpowered on level then this quest is written for. be glad someone takes the effort to show how things are looking, and makes a effort to bring it to the outside world to the fans. If yer not a fan, just stfu, if you are a fan, give the guys who are doing a herculesian task of chancing a existing game into something else a break

i for one am excited about the prgress, yes i was dissapointed the timeline wasnt met, but i read the explanation and i can only have respect for Yoshi-P and his team when they say we will not launch a game until it sattisfy our standerd, that our fans expect from us.
so, give them a break, if ya have something constuctive to add what they can impliment in the development speak yer mind, but dont come crying later when the timeline of april isnt met as well cause they listen to the forums

in the end, haters will hate
we dont need haters, we need people who are looking forward to the miracle SE is attempting, make a game that disspointed, into something that the FANS love

[Belgarion]

p.s dont come crying on my grammatic or spelling, get a life