Alpha First Look: Video 5 - Quests and Combat

[ZakarnRosewood]

I posted this on a different thread but i think it applies to the conversation here as well. Forgive me if this is a taboo thing to do but here it is.

I agree that end game and the Hardcore players need to have lots of challenging content to keep them long term, this give an MMO sustainability. Appealing to casual alone is a nail in the coffin for an MMO, once they move on as casuals do then those subs disappear. How much time did you spend at the lower levels in FFXI (just being curious not trying to needle) VS how much time you spent at end game? How memorable was the early stuff? I do hope for a decent end game to keep players busy for more than a month (look how fast the Primals were beaten and that was supposed to be the hardest content.)

By the same token I think the early to mid levels should be about learning how to play, how the game functions, and how to work well in party play. This is aimed at the casual or beginner player and it should be this way. If it is hardcore through and through then you will never get a new audience or build a more steady player base. To date they have shown us one starting area, a 5 min demo of two (out of 300+ quests), all at level 5-12. So far everything seems quite good and paced well for beginners and newcomers. For the hardcore, you will fly through this on your way to end game and will probably forget all about it anyway, so why the worry?

If the team does not try to include the new/casual as well as generate epic end game content then the game will probably die off like so many before. I'm not to worried about that honestly. I have not seen a Dev team so devoted to listening to their players and dedicated to making a game succeed as this one in all my years of gaming. It looks like they have a solid core system down now that has much more room for development than the previous one. Watching 1.0 evolve into what it was in the end given what they had to work with, I can't see this team stopping after launch. This is the nature of an MMO, it is constantly evolving.

I too have my concerns but I'm not the type of person that only focuses on the negative. The world is too diverse to focus all the devs resources on trying to appeal to one particular niche group, remember that at one point you were a "noob" too. we all were. I seriously doubt at 5 years old when you picked up your first game that you aced that in a day. I only wish people were more considerate about new players and wanted to include them too. We all have to start somewhere and if someone chooses to start am MMO with FFXIV, I want them to enjoy it and continue to play until they are a hardcore too. don't you?

[Kiote]

Quest grinding is mindless?

Hmm...

So what are your thoughts about monster grinding? in exp parties? Is that somehow...thought provoking?

I think I'm missing something.

You are missing something. I have not advocated Monster Grinding, but it does have one advantage over Quest Grinding.

Monster Grind Parties are Social. You do not play a Grinding MMO alone.

What I have been advocating is removing the mindless simplicity from Quest Grinding and turning it in to Questing.

Quest grinding can be made fun by extending the duration of individual quests and linking them to party based Boss fights.

It is a lot easier to run a Quest in a Party when you don't have to hope everyone has the same cluster. More importantly, it allows the quest to have substance. Not just flavor text.

[Psykotsu]

I posted this on a different thread but i think it applies to the conversation here as well. Forgive me if this is a taboo thing to do but here it is.

So true. I wish people were actually considerate and actually thought outside their box for once.

[Psykotsu]

You are missing something. I have not advocated Monster Grinding, but it does have one advantage over Quest Grinding.

Monster Grind Parties are Social. You do not play a Grinding MMO alone.

What I have been advocating is removing the mindless simplicity from Quest Grinding and turning it in to Questing.

Quest grinding can be made fun by extending the duration of individual quests and linking them to party based Boss fights.

It is a lot easier to run a Quest in a Party when you don't have to hope everyone has the same cluster. More importantly, it allows the quest to have substance. Not just flavor text.

I wasn't missing it, I knew it was implied because you didn't mention it. And what you're saying is strictly opinion based. People have shouted for spiritbond/exp parties since chains have been included in the game. Of all of them I've joined, and I'm sure most can agree, 80% of them had no social aspect to them aside from, "Can you please cure?!?" or "Why are you still behind that gate?", and "Is that group really going to come here and take our mobs?"

Being social in a party is completely by choice. Just like asking someone to help you do a side-quest, also a choice.

From your experience, you have not played a grinding MMO alone. And quest grinding can be made fun for you for your reason. They already have the F.A.T.E system that will be doing something similar to your request.

It's a lot easier to do everything in this game if you're in a party. But some people actually have FUN tackling things alone. I know you're thinking "MMOs aren't meant to be played alone!" But games evolve dude. It's the same idea for console games that people enjoy, they wish they could play with their friends. GTA for example. The opposite is happening for MMOS. Offer a multiplayer and singleplayer experience.

Making this questing system that you want would mean that people who don't have much time to play won't get shit done. They come online, try to find a party, wait 3 hours they had to enjoy the game, and then sign off because they only managed to get 5 of the 8 people they needed for this questing system.

And what game(s) has this thorough questing system that you want in ARR so bad? I want to try it out.

[Kiote]

For the hardcore, you will fly through this on your way to end game and will probably forget all about it anyway, so why the worry?

It is a pretty big assumption that Hardcore players simply want to fly through content to the Endgame. I think you may be confusing Hardcore players and Elitists. Where Elitist care only about having the best stuff at the highest level, true Hardcore players are more focused on having Endless and Entertaining game play that they will enjoy for years to come. Not a completely hollow unmemorable experience that culminates in repeating the same endgame dungeons a hundred times.

For me, in every MMO I have ever played, the most memorable moments are:

The first time I get to explore the starting city.
The first time I get a party.
The first time I hit Level Cap.
The time I finally beat the Epic Boss that was preventing me from moving forward with a Story.

Endgame Content, when made well, is fun, but it does not compare to the experience of getting to Endgame.

[Kiote]

I wasn't missing it, I knew it was implied because you didn't mention it. And what you're saying is strictly opinion based. People have shouted for spiritbond/exp parties since chains have been included in the game. Of all of them I've joined, and I'm sure most can agree, 80% of them had no social aspect to them aside from, "Can you please cure?!?" or "Why are you still behind that gate?", and "Is that group really going to come here and take our mobs?"

Being social in a party is completely by choice. Just like asking someone to help you do a side-quest, also a choice.

From your experience, you have not played a grinding MMO alone. And quest grinding can be made fun for you for your reason. They already have the F.A.T.E system that will be doing something similar to your request.

It's a lot easier to do everything in this game if you're in a party. But some people actually have FUN tackling things alone. I know you're thinking "MMOs aren't meant to be played alone!" But games evolve dude. It's the same idea for console games that people enjoy, they wish they could play with their friends. GTA for example. The opposite is happening for MMOS. Offer a multiplayer and singleplayer experience.

Making this questing system that you want would mean that people who don't have much time to play won't get shit done. They come online, try to find a party, wait 3 hours they had to enjoy the game, and then sign off because they only managed to get 5 of the 8 people they needed for this questing system.

And what game(s) has this thorough questing system that you want in ARR so bad? I want to try it out.

And there you go jumping to Conclusions again. I am not advocating Monster Grinding. I do not think it is the best way to do things. I am also not saying all quests should require a party. I said in depth quests would better promote party play because it would be easier to have the same quest as other people.

You are correct in your assumption that I have never played a Party Grind MMO alone. I mean honestly, that would just be stupid. You don't play a party grind MMO alone.

I have, however, played a Quest Grinding MMO alone. This is, of course, not by choice. The biggest problem Quest Grinding MMOs is they push people away from Parties. While I agree that people should not be forced to party to advance in an MMO, I do not think the game should be developed in a way that makes partying completely Obsolete.

Quest Grinding makes Partying Obsolete.

[Orophin]

I dunno, most hardcores I've met seem to fly through the leveling process as soon as they can just to get to max level so they can participate in end game. I was guilty in this in WoW, although admittedly it was on subsequent characters other than my first and I had already read all the quest text, so I just skipped through everything. That's not to say that some people don't care about the story (some people clearly don't) and will just skip through the text and get to the task at hand.

Quest Grinding makes Partying Obsolete.

That's not true at all. Yoshi-P has said that major arcs in the main storyline will require parties to complete. There's also dungeons that can be done in between as well as end-game content. There will always be people grouping together. It shouldn't matter how people level up. It's just a means to an end.

[Skies]

Monster Grind Parties are Social. You do not play a Grinding MMO alone.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong
I'm sure that RO was not as grindy as XI, but still.
I remember those days when I first started playing RO, I did so much grinding alone. So many levels, I got my thief all the way up to Assassin alone... I got my Acolyte almost up to Priest alone, no parties. Not for my own desire either.

I could only find friends in my server when I searched for a thing that was completely unrelated to the game itself, but it was ran into it anyway, an RPing community. That's when I first made some friends, when I finally started partying for grinding.

So excuse-me if I will not accept you telling me that. Monster-grinding does not makes you meet new people, seeking out new people makes you meet new people.

Also i'm every bit as willing to say that you're a fringe case as you're probably willing to tell me I am

[Psykotsu]

And there you go jumping to Conclusions again. I am not advocating Monster Grinding. I do not think it is the best way to do things. I am also not saying all quests should require a party. I said in depth quests would better promote party play because it would be easier to have the same quest as other people.

You are correct in your assumption that I have never played a Party Grind MMO alone. I mean honestly, that would just be stupid. You don't play a party grind MMO alone.

I have, however, played a Quest Grinding MMO alone. This is, of course, not by choice. The biggest problem Quest Grinding MMOs is they push people away from Parties. While I agree that people should not be forced to party to advance in an MMO, I do not think the game should be developed in a way that makes partying completely Obsolete.

Quest Grinding makes Partying Obsolete.

It was not jumping to conclusions, I was only addressing the issue as it was brought up, chill. It's called creating a counterpoint, that's how papers are well written.

In any case, where did this "Party" Grinding MMO come from? You only said Grinding MMO. But it doesn't matter what you said because you're wrong. Quest Grinding does not make partying obsolete at all. Tera uses this formula and I don't recall a moment where I could accomplish anything alone, and if I could, it was not worth the time. :/. And that game requires more skill, and by that, I mean, my control is probably what will lead me to my death as opposed to my stats. I digress.

Quest Grinding mmos do NOT push people away from parties. Here is the simple fact that you and others don't get, it's the community that wants to PLAY ALONE! I bet if I want to party with someone for a leve or a side-quest, the game will not stop me.

Developers have thought past the forcing party restriction to get shit done. You know why? Because when people are done with the content, they do not go back. So what do the people who can't get that shit done do, to level up? They do quests.

In depth quests don't promote party play man...it just doesn't. Quests that can't be done alone "promotes" party play. Look at XI. I'm sure if players had the option/skill to do a lot of those quests alone, they would.

It's not the games, it's the players. Just make friends and do all your quests in a party, and you'll be good. But wait....they'll be too easy. And that's the next problem.

[Hestern_Nestern]

Helping this precarious conversation along to the Tangent Lands...

I have made friends in monster-slaying grinding parties. I have made friends in quest-slaying parties. But the only reason I ever did was because I bothered to do so. I engaged the other players in dialogue and became friends with them -- often times I wasn't talking to them about what we were currently doing - but whatever my silly brain could think of to say.

And I've made even more friends in towns or walking along in some zone. I just see people passing by or doing something and I wave - I start emoting, sometimes roleplaying - I compliment people's appearances or I follow people around because I want to figure out what nefarious deeds they are up to (they are usually doing something innocent like buying or crafting stuff and wondering why this little guy is following them around). I make a lot of friends by being helplessly lost despite a map (navigational issues, me).

But the point is...I make friends because I make friends. Sure, certain systems might facilitate friendships more, but inevitably it all comes down to me. Do I speak? Am I friendly wherever I go? Do I explore the world and the people in it? We must use whatever system we are given to our advantage to make friends to grind or quest with. We can't expect some magical string of code that will do it for us.

Yeah.

/speech