Alpha First Look: Video 5 - Quests and Combat

[Andrien]

I'm not a fan of quest based leveling in general and other than TSW I haven't played any MMO that has made it fun or enjoyable. I don't mind having quests that give you EXP in ARR but I'm worried about a couple of things:

1. Firstly, it seems that the quests are the main way to level. Normal mobs don't give you nearly any EXP at all so grinding isn't an option even if you'd prefer that (Yoshi mentioned this in some interview aswell). We'll see what the other options like guildleves and FATE will bring to the table, maybe they really are a valid option to the quest grind for those who prefer them.

2. Secondly, as seen on the video, the quest system is extremely boring. It's not about actually "questing" (read: adventuring), it's about following glowing arrows and blinking lights. You don't have to know anything about what's going on, just follow the signs and wait until you get your EXP reward. Yes, this is how it's done in so many other games, I know. But should we as players accept that as an excuse? I don't think so.

When I first read about making ARR leveling quest based I was honestly hoping for something new, enjoyable, next-gen MMO-questing experience. I imagined it would involve long storyline that would lead me to a journey through the world, one new area at a time, and interesting dungeons for both solo and group play for many different level ranges. Instead we got this.

You raise a few questions.

Since you're not a fan of quest based leveling, I guess you don't like side quest.

I assume you prefer killing endless waves of monsters without knowing anything about them, but you'll kill them anyways just for xp.

I guess when you're finish with one area, you'll move on to the next one and repeat right? Whats the difference?

The fact of the matter is, there is a difference between Side Quest, and Main Storylines. What you also saw in that video is a low level quest for players below level 12, and just like any other RPG they have side quest. Expect hundreds of them in ARR.

[Maxthunder]

I think at least two people have mentioned this already, but Secret World has a really good quest based leveling system. I only played the beta but at least on those levels the quest were extremely well written and thought and they really brought some depth in to the game world and supported the main story. It felt weird at first because you could only have 3 quests open at a time but the system worked well and while doing the quests I actually remembered what I was doing and why.

I'm not a fan of quest based leveling in general and other than TSW I haven't played any MMO that has made it fun or enjoyable. I don't mind having quests that give you EXP in ARR but I'm worried about a couple of things:

1. Firstly, it seems that the quests are the main way to level. Normal mobs don't give you nearly any EXP at all so grinding isn't an option even if you'd prefer that (Yoshi mentioned this in some interview aswell). We'll see what the other options like guildleves and FATE will bring to the table, maybe they really are a valid option to the quest grind for those who prefer them.

2. Secondly, as seen on the video, the quest system is extremely boring. It's not about actually "questing" (read: adventuring), it's about following glowing arrows and blinking lights. You don't have to know anything about what's going on, just follow the signs and wait until you get your EXP reward. Yes, this is how it's done in so many other games, I know. But should we as players accept that as an excuse? I don't think so.

When I first read about making ARR leveling quest based I was honestly hoping for something new, enjoyable, next-gen MMO-questing experience. I imagined it would involve long storyline that would lead me to a journey through the world, one new area at a time, and interesting dungeons for both solo and group play for many different level ranges. Instead we got this.

Ill be honest without mob grind SE stands to lose as many as they gain if not more. The quest based leveling Im sorry I cant stand doing side quests so Yoshi is effectively gonna turn away a lot of players and thats not a good thing. There needs tyo be balance between quest leveling and mob grinding. I honestly dont see Yoshi finding a balace between the 2 and thats something he really needs to not just consider but damn well better do it.

[Andrien]

Ill be honest without mob grind SE stands to lose as many as they gain if not more. The quest based leveling Im sorry I cant stand doing side quests so Yoshi is effectively gonna turn away a lot of players and thats not a good thing. There needs tyo be balance between quest leveling and mob grinding. I honestly dont see Yoshi finding a balace between the 2 and thats something he really needs to not just consider but damn well better do it.

Mob grinding. You mean exp dungeons right? Yeah, yeah they have that.

[Raven_Reborn]

To the people complaining about quest being the main way to get EXP ..... umm, hello Levequest from 1.0. What hell do you think THAT was? At least now we don't have to stand in one darn spot to get quests.. and they all have a story behind them now.

[Genjuro]

To the people complaining about quest being the main way to get EXP ..... umm, hello Levequest from 1.0. What hell do you think THAT was? At least now we don't have to stand in one darn spot to get quests.. and they all have a story behind them now.

See I agree. When you initiate a levequest you go and fight the same mobs at the same level over and over again. Take away the leve initiation and you're still fighting mobs over and over again. Same thing with the "WoW Method." They are all different methods to the same end, grinding.

[Taika]

Since you're not a fan of quest based leveling, I guess you don't like side quest.

I assume you prefer killing endless waves of monsters without knowing anything about them, but you'll kill them anyways just for xp.

Don't get me wrong, I like quests and did all the side quests I could in both 1.0 and XI. I guess I should have written "I'm not a fan of quest based leveling as it's usually implemented", which is in a boring, grindy way. I guess having to do them to be able to level up is what kills the fun for me.

I did enjoy the quest based leveling system in TSW and I dream of a quest system that would be based on long storylines with lots of adventuring for both solo players and groups.

I guess I'm just disappointed they didn't create something special. And worried that the grindy quests will be the best option to level.

[Maxthunder]

Mob grinding. You mean exp dungeons right? Yeah, yeah they have that.

Instanced exp dungeons is another thats gonna have some issues and no thats not what I meant. Now seeing you said it open world dungeons would be better than running thru an instanced dungeon and you dont have to worry about a cool down.

[ZakarnRosewood]

Don't get me wrong, I like quests and did all the side quests I could in both 1.0 and XI. I guess I should have written "I'm not a fan of quest based leveling as it's usually implemented", which is in a boring, grindy way. I guess having to do them to be able to level up is what kills the fun for me.

I did enjoy the quest based leveling system in TSW and I dream of a quest system that would be based on long storylines with lots of adventuring for both solo players and groups.

I guess I'm just disappointed they didn't create something special. And worried that the grindy quests will be the best option to level.

From the sounds of things most of the quest leveling progression will only support a single class/job, especially if you do all of them. Its not like we have to create a whole new character to level another job so if we complete all the quests in one area, what's left for the other 6 or so classes? Class specific quests, leve quests, dungeons, and mob grinding. Could this be the balance you seek?

[Ashaylin]

At this point, I'm at an "I wish" state more than anything else - for FFXIV, and for future MMO's in general. I'm more interested in the idea of "Standardized Questing", however. To me, when something is "standardize", it boxes things in so that new ideas have a hard time expanding that box.

Do you guys believe it is out of the question to have quantity coupled with unique progression side quests?

I believe quantity and uniqueness are not mutually exclusive. The unique quests can be the same length as the more mundane ones. Additional manpower does not have to factor into the equation if you use the resources that already exists, and if that is true, time pressures will not occur, because then the only difference between the mundane and the unique is the idea.

I'm not an avid MMO player, but from what I have played and experienced, I think there is a tether to "quests" and "enemies & items" that stagnates developers' approaches to questing altogether. Why does questing have to involve either one of those two things? Here are some off the hand examples of different quests a developer can generate without enemies or items (i.e. gathering and fetching) being involved. The quests do not have to be elaborate, and I'd like to emphasize the idea of "simple yet different":

• Let the player travel to different marked areas and then return for a memorization test.
• Have players talk to several people who all tell contradictory tales. Let the player decide who is lying and report back. Make failing the quest possible.
• Make a hide and go seek quest with hints as to areas where the other npc is hiding, such as "What's grey and has turrets and is filled with disgruntled Garleans?" Randomize the hiding area every time and make the quest repeatable. Have the higher hide and seek quests make the player go through more dangerous terrain.

I'm sure developers can come up with more enjoyable quests, but what I'd like to make clear from that list is that with these few examples, the player isn't treated as an automaton. Rather, they engage the player on a slightly different level. The quests are nothing epic, but the players are made to explore; They're made to familiarize themselves with the lore; They're involved.

It's being toted around by the developers that the game is for everyone, so why not mix up the side quests so that they can be inclusive as well? Mix the "kill x of y" with the non-killing quests also. What's important is variety. Do you believe developers should try for anything less? The quests that you see in the video may be what many other MMOs have "standardized", and I will not argue that they have worked, but what I want to see is for MMO companies, especially SE, to go beyond what "just works". Don't you?


[I have to put a little disclaimer here because I'm writing all of this under the impression that these types of quests in the video are the main attraction, which more than likely is not the case, and it does not take the main story scenarios into account]

***

To the person who says, "Show me your game." I say that you don't need to be an artist to critique art, a writer to critique a book, a director to critique a movie, and in this case, a programmer to critique a game.

***

As to the video itself, I like it, but a few aesthetically jarring things stood out for me.

• The ! quest icons look huge and intrusive.
• The "Quest Accepted" and "Quest Complete" are also huge and are overly emphasized. Consider seeing those over and over again for the 100th time in a short time span.

[ZakarnRosewood]

At this point, I'm at an "I wish" state more than anything else - for FFXIV, and for future MMO's in general. I'm more interested in the idea of "Standardized Questing", however. To me, when something is "standardize", it boxes things in so that new ideas have a hard time expanding that box.

Do you guys believe it is out of the question to have quantity coupled with unique progression side quests?

I believe quantity and uniqueness are not mutually exclusive. The unique quests can be the same length as the more mundane ones. Additional manpower does not have to factor into the equation if you use the resources that already exists, and if that is true, time pressures will not occur, because then the only difference between the mundane and the unique is the idea.

I'm not an avid MMO player, but from what I have played and experienced, I think there is a tether to "quests" and "enemies & items" that stagnates developers' approaches to questing altogether. Why does questing have to involve either one of those two things? Here are some off the hand examples of different quests a developer can generate without enemies or items (i.e. gathering and fetching) being involved. The quests do not have to be elaborate, and I'd like to emphasize the idea of "simple yet different":

• Let the player travel to different marked areas and then return for a memorization test.
• Have players talk to several people who all tell contradictory tales. Let the player decide who is lying and report back. Make failing the quest possible.
• Make a hide and go seek quest with hints as to areas where the other npc is hiding, such as "What's grey and has turrets and is filled with disgruntled Garleans?" Randomize the hiding area every time and make the quest repeatable. Have the higher hide and seek quests make the player go through more dangerous terrain.

I'm sure developers can come up with more enjoyable quests, but what I'd like to make clear from that list is that with these few examples, the player isn't treated as an automaton. Rather, they engage the player on a slightly different level. The quests are nothing epic, but the players are made to explore; They're made to familiarize themselves with the lore; They're involved.

It's being toted around by the developers that the game is for everyone, so why not mix up the side quests so that they can be inclusive as well? Mix the "kill x of y" with the non-killing quests also. What's important is variety. Do you believe developers should try for anything less? The quests that you see in the video may be what many other MMOs have "standardized", and I will not argue that they have worked, but what I want to see is for MMO companies, especially SE, to go beyond what "just works". Don't you?


[I have to put a little disclaimer here because I'm writing all of this under the impression that these types of quests in the video are the main attraction, which more than likely is not the case, and it does not take the main story scenarios into account]

***

To the person who says, "Show me your game." I say that you don't need to be an artist to critique art, a writer to critique a book, a director to critique a movie, and in this case, a programmer to critique a game.

***

As to the video itself, I like it, but a few aesthetically jarring things stood out for me.

• The ! quest icons look huge and intrusive.
• The "Quest Accepted" and "Quest Complete" are also huge and are overly emphasized. Consider seeing those over and over again for the 100th time in a short time span.

It sounds like you just described the difference between NPC quests and the Mission quests. They only showed us "quests" so far, something that was not introduced in 1.0 for quite some time. in 1.0 they had the Hildebrand quests, this tells me they will have varied quest objectives, like the ones you are seeking. They have yet to show us how the LeveQuest system has changed, how the main storyline quests will go, how the Grand Company quests will go, and how the Job specific quests will go. I find it almost insulting to think that the devs are going to have every quest be "go here, kill this" when they have had varied quests in 1.0. They have said hildebrand will make a re-appearance, that right there says things will be varied.