The level link between Jobs and Classes

[Duelle]

For me the original concept was fine, sadly too many XIV players were stuck in XI mode and wanted to feel unique snowflakes in whatever 'role' they played, so they complained about the 'multi-classing' nature of the game as it was released.

Sadly SE caved in to this demand for retro-style character development and we went back to an XI-kinda structure, but without the simplicity of XI's job/subjob structure.

Worst of all worlds, it didn't appeal those who liked the more free-form character construction of the original nor to those stuck in the 2002 world of rigid 'dual-classing'.

The alternative would have been what The Secret World currently has: abilities can be used by anyone so long as they have the appropriate weapons, but setting certain abilities creates a "pre-built deck', which in their context would be no different than what we know as jobs. Set certain abilities and you're a witch hunter. Set certain abilities and you were an exorcist. Set certain abilities and you were an assassin. And so on.

Is it perfect? Not really. Would it have worked in this game? No idea.

I'm okay with the current system, and will continue to be so long as the jobs keep getting things that make sense for them. I know it sacrifices some versatility (I know the chance of me seeing Holy Knight implemented are slim to none), but if it means the jobs stay within concept, I'm fine with that.

[Azurus]

For me the original concept was fine, sadly too many XIV players were stuck in XI mode and wanted to feel unique snowflakes in whatever 'role' they played, so they complained about the 'multi-classing' nature of the game as it was released.

Sadly SE caved in to this demand for retro-style character development and we went back to an XI-kinda structure, but without the simplicity of XI's job/subjob structure.

Worst of all worlds, it didn't appeal those who liked the more free-form character construction of the original nor to those stuck in the 2002 world of rigid 'dual-classing'.

it has nothing to do with being "stuck in 2002" it has to do with the fact that literally every class played exactly the same and their were a select number of skills everyone used since they made for the fastest grinding of coblyns. it was real dumb. THM tank anyone? the system was fine? really? u say it gave freedom but it just pidgeonholed u in to leveling certain classes for certain skills so you could solo effectively. (before classes there was no real content to balance around) before jobs it was just zerg world nms with a thm tank.

[Sakasa]

Well even if they don't add a new class with every job they system and there statements of questing for more abilities, it is possible they can force content completion similar to forcing xping. For instance let say they add red mage to gla and sniper to arc in one update. Because of the addition together they could add long expansive quest lines that require other events such as dungeon completion behest, specific fetch quest, so on and so forth for the stronger abilities and in addition add new abilities to the other jobs that require the same. Its a cheap tactic yes but it allows for more writing and lore addition as well as reasons to seen people into less explored areas.

[Thebard]

Its a situation where you will just have to wait and see what they have done, what changes they have made.
This thread is redundant until we see those changes in beta because all you are doing is discussing the 1.0 scenario and thats not what we are getting in 2.0/ARR
Plus there are already threads on this topic.

[Wicka]

I agree that there is little point in assuming it will be the same in 2.0.

But I also agree with OP. Unless the current system is changed, it will be detrimental to the future of the game. I don't know what they have planned for 2.0, but I would not be opposed to a decision to do away with classes.

Games require satisfying feedback to be successful. One of the quintessential forms of feedback in rpgs is the ever-satisfying level-up. if the number of jobs doubles in the future (doesn't seem unreasonable), several problems arise if the system is not changed.

the jobs that share a base class also share the same attributes, weapons, basic weapon skills, traits, and level. I understand that they are changing the way attributes work in 2.0 so that may be a moot point. But if weapons, ws, and traits remain as they do now then the resulting jobs will be boringly similar.

Sharing levels brings up a whole other can of worms. My buddy and I are both looking forward to our favorite classes/jobs. Bluemage and puppetmaster, respectively. Lets assume they are both released at the same time, but Bluemage is released with a new class (lets say the light-blue-mage) and pup just branches off of a pre-existing class (lets say pug because i dig monk and have it at 50). We can't run low level content together because he is level 1 and I am 50. To solve this issue they would need to release a new class with each job, which makes classes redundant.

I understand that people enjoy the freeform nature of classes. Maybe a compromise could be made. If they kept the predefined cross-class options (2 options per job) and allowed us to pick a 3rd cross-class job, would that be acceptable? It could be a good way to continue using the job stones too. You level a job to 30 to obtain the job stone, which you can then equip to open up a 3rd job for cross-class skills. For example, BLM gets his 2 predefined cross-class options. And if he also has WHM at 30, he can equip that job stone and get access to WHM cross-class skills as well. I kinda just thought of this, and Im interested to hear from somebody who wants to keep classes around because the enjoy the freedom. Does that sound like an acceptable compromise?

Ultimately, changes are coming. And until we know how the new system will work, we shouldn't really worry. Very interested in thoughts my job stone idea, though.

[Wicka]

I agree that there is little point in assuming it will be the same in 2.0.

But I also agree with OP. Unless the current system is changed, it will be detrimental to the future of the game. I don't know what they have planned for 2.0, but I would not be opposed to a decision to do away with classes.

Games require satisfying feedback to be successful. One of the quintessential forms of feedback in rpgs is the ever-satisfying level-up. if the number of jobs doubles in the future (doesn't seem unreasonable), several problems arise if the system is not changed.

the jobs that share a base class also share the same attributes, weapons, basic weapon skills, traits, and level. I understand that they are changing the way attributes work in 2.0 so that may be a moot point. But if weapons, ws, and traits remain as they do now then the resulting jobs will be boringly similar.

Sharing levels brings up a whole other can of worms. My buddy and I are both looking forward to our favorite classes/jobs. Bluemage and puppetmaster, respectively. Lets assume they are both released at the same time, but Bluemage is released with a new class (lets say the light-blue-mage) and pup just branches off of a pre-existing class (lets say pug because i dig monk and have it at 50). We can't run low level content together because he is level 1 and I am 50. To solve this issue they would need to release a new class with each job, which makes classes redundant.

I understand that people enjoy the freeform nature of classes. Maybe a compromise could be made. If they kept the predefined cross-class options (2 options per job) and allowed us to pick a 3rd cross-class job, would that be acceptable? It could be a good way to continue using the job stones too. You level a job to 30 to obtain the job stone, which you can then equip to open up a 3rd job for cross-class skills. For example, BLM gets his 2 predefined cross-class options. And if he also has WHM at 30, he can equip that job stone and get access to WHM cross-class skills as well. I kinda just thought of this, and Im interested to hear from somebody who wants to keep classes around because the enjoy the freedom. Does that sound like an acceptable compromise?

Ultimately, changes are coming. And until we know how the new system will work, we shouldn't really worry. Very interested in thoughts my job stone idea, though.

[NoctisXZ]

First I just wanted to state that I had no knowledge of another thread like this. It must be buried somewhere though I'm sure.. so forgive me for the samey old threat posting. I hate that stuff as much as the next guy!

And while I know there a multitude of changes ahead of us once ARR launches I just can't sit around and wait and see. I have to be proactive about it and voice my opinion here since I haven't received an Alpha invite. As a matter of fact that's the primary reason I was hoping that I'd be accepted.. to give my feedback on that specific matter as soon as possible. I don't know everything that's going to change with the game and I don't expect to have all the details presented to me right now.. info needs to be staggered for many reasons. But on the other hand this is, in my eyes, a HUGE issue that could honestly make or break the game. It might not seem so as of this moment.. or even when the game has been out for a little while. But in the future I can only see problem after problem arising because of the current situation as some have already voiced here.

The armoury system itself needs a little work but it can be tweaked and perfected. I'm confident that it can get to a place where jobs aren't watered down because of there respective classes. My ONLY issue with it though is the level linking..

I've offered my solution. And I think it's grounded in reality and something that CAN be done in a relatively short time frame.. perhaps it would push the game back another month but I think a lot of us can wait if it means that the game will be the best that it can be.

Do away with the level linking. Once you unlock a job have it start out as whatever the required level of the main class/job that it's linked to is in order to unlock it, regardless of if that class/job is already capped. So if your Marauder is already level 50.. once you go to unlock Warrior it will start out at level 30 and level up INDIVIDUALLY of the main class it's linked to.

With that solution you wouldn't have to go back and add extra content or work around the game mechanics or lore so I can't see why it wouldn't be done.. hopefully it ALREADY is, but it doesn't hurt for me to voice my opinion on the matter.

I just can't see any other solution. Granted a few more classes do need to be added, like a thief type class, I just can't see the model of.. new class/new job working over the long run. You'd run into SO many issues with how classes work in general and it would create a giant balancing issue.

[Kirito]

Actually the only answer I see for situations like this is to have a level range for certain dungeons and instances. If a person doesn't fall within the level range then their level will get rolled back to highest level of the range while in the dungeon. That way low level players can play with with higher level individuals without the dungeon losing most of it's fun. For situations with players of lower levels that want to play with higher level players, I don't see it as possible. They could roll the player level up for the lower level player, but then it would take out the urge to bother leveling a character in the first place. I also don't like the idea of rolling up levels because it kind of discourages meeting new people since you can always get your eight friends to do a full party with you and even if they didn't tank they roll up system would give them enough stats to do it.

[urban]

This is going to be very difficult for me to articulate properly to the masses but nevertheless I'm going to give it a shot. I know that I'm going to be met with some resistance, which is understandable, and that some are just going to outright dismiss what I have to say on the grounds that this type of thing has been discussed before.. but here it goes...

To start off I just wanted to say that I like the armoury system.. is it perfect? Not at all.. but can it be perfected with a little work? Yes it can.. to outright do away with it would be an extremely silly thing. It has so much potential for solo play and just in terms of job diversity that I don't want to see it go.

There are so many combinations and possibilities for unlocking new jobs that it actually excites me and makes me want to level classes and jobs that I normally wouldn't. Eventually for more advanced jobs you could get into having to have an actual job at level 30 or 50 and another job or class at level 15 or 30. As the level cap raises there is more potential for more interesting things.

Now to get into what really matters to me. The one thing that really worries me about this game above all else. The one thing that I think could actually harm it in the long run and be its eventual downfall.. the way in which jobs and classes are linked. I've tried to be open minded with it but I simply can not see it working.. and I can't see it building any interest in any new jobs as long as it exists.

Don't get me wrong.. when the first wave of jobs were implemented it was something that could be tolerated simply because there was, for the most part, nothing else... in the future I just can't see it helping the game.. especially if we are sticking to the current armoury system.

I don't want to imagine playing ARR and when a new job is released I'm automatically level 50 with a wealth of abilities to acquire. It simply takes all of the fun and interest out of learning how to play.. there is absolutely nothing to look forward to. Sure.. you could work around that, but then you'd have to implement a new class for every new job and that presents a whole different set of problems and just further restricts the games potential.

I try to look at things logically.. and logically I can't see them starting jobs at level 1 after you acquire them. They would have to create so many more basic abilities that already exist on different classes and create more quest lines to unlock more job specific abilities before level 30. Not to mention it would set the launch of the game back a few more months most likely...

Now what could work is starting jobs at level 30.. granted I don't make games and have no idea how long it would take. But I do believe it wouldn't take as long as what I said above... it would fix everything.

I know some of you won't agree with me. But for the good of the game jobs and classes needed to be leveled up independently of one another. I truly want this game to succeed.. and I understand there will be things that I do like and things that I don't like. This I do not like.. but don't get me wrong. I don't want to change it simply because I don't like it, that's extremely selfish and stupid. I want it to change because I want this game to last for many years and do as well as it can..

almost sound like FF11 when you have to play each job to be able to fully utilize it as a complete sub job.

[urban]

i like the idea tho. it would be great *Only* if they have implemented this from the begining..i dont think it'll work for 2.o tho...considering sooo many ppl maxed out all the job already.