[Speculation Discussion] Our Primal

[Eagleheart]

Siren was already confirmed to be boss content, so it'd be quite odd if we had to fight our own Primal. Odin is considered the 'grand' primal or something different in terms of primals as well as wandering boss content, which again would make it weird to fight our own Primal.

Alexander and Fenrir is possible, since in FFIX Alexander was basically the final summoning for protection but in FFXI he was to bring about Ragnarok (Divine Judgement) which Odin fought him since it would remove willing souls (killing everyone) to bind contracts with him (Odin.)

Since they're looking at XI in certain ways (just think about both Bahamuts for a second if played it) seeing Alexander as ours makes sense.

Possibly related, but in the official write-up of the story thus far, Bahamut is referred to as an "Elder Primal", just as Odin is. o.O Food for thought - to what conclusions? I dunno, but I love these threads.

[Akubikumo]

Possibly related, but in the official write-up of the story thus far, Bahamut is referred to as an "Elder Primal", just as Odin is. o.O Food for thought - to what conclusions? I dunno, but I love these threads.

Ah yes, what/whoever our primal is, we should probably assume it pre-dates The Twelve. After all, if the 5 races are all worshiping The Twelve, that would kind of imply we all converted at some point. The question then would be, are there 5 forgotten primals, one for each race? Primals that we all abandoned? Or 1 primal that we all share (which would mean that we are all descended from a common ancestor... right?)? Wouldn't this common, ancient primal be something more all-encompassing? say....Eden?

[Orophin]

Ah yes, what/whoever our primal is, we should probably assume it pre-dates The Twelve.

This really doesn't make sense to me because The Twelve created Hydaelyn. One part I can specifically remember was Llymlaen created the oceans by loosing Leviathan into the world. After observing that Leviathan would eventually flood the land, he was sealed away in Seal Rock. This is Limsa Lominsa folklore though; I don't know if it's actually true.

So if anything, The Twelve created the Primals, going by the above.

[Hulan]

This really doesn't make sense to me because The Twelve created Hydaelyn. One part I can specifically remember was Llymlaen created the oceans by loosing Leviathan into the world. After observing that Leviathan would eventually flood the land, he was sealed away in Seal Rock. This is Limsa Lominsa folklore though; I don't know if it's actually true.

So if anything, The Twelve created the Primals, going by the above.

While I doubt it is the case, you have to remember, this is all belief in world; lore and mythology. It's entirely possible that what is taught about the 12 is a complete fabrication. That being said, in principle I agree with you, usually lore in Final Fantasy games is set in stone and taken at face value.

Cait Sith is an interesting theory, though I would feel like that was a cop out. Odin and Alexander both have some interesting potential as well. As for Odin being battle content, it would not be the first time in a Final Fantasy game where the characters found themselves used and pitted against their previous benefactors.

[Endu]

While I doubt it is the case, you have to remember, this is all belief in world; lore and mythology. It's entirely possible that what is taught about the 12 is a complete fabrication. That being said, in principle I agree with you, usually lore in Final Fantasy games is set in stone and taken at face value.

Final Fantasy 11 had all kinds of twists in the main storylines of the 3 main expansions. I wouldn't count on the lore ever being the concrete factual truth, ESPECIALLY when it concerns gods & goddesses. FFXI flipped the script multiple times with the lore, I wouldn't be surprised if FFXIV did the same.

[Anonymoose]

<Snip>

I like where you're going with a lot of this - and it's certainly up to date with the research I've been doing myself. I think your point about the importance of the Primals vs. Ascians. vs. Woken match is right on, and maybe even opens the door for what we see. The ascian in the Limsa Lominsa storyline wanted the key personally and is visibly a cause of the star showers and possibly even time travel. It would be very interesting if the ascians were the cause of our echo - even indirectly, as if seeing the threat of the ascians roused a primal to pick us as their defense against them.

Amaal'jaa are fire. If Goblins are racially different from Kobolds they might have another elemental affinity, otherwise I'd probably lump them in with Kobolds as being Earth based.

The goblins are most definitely a unique race - but if we see their primal, I'm betting (like the moogles) it will be something semi-canon; a fun distraction. Goblins are supposed to be ambiguous - we never see their true faces (though, if you do a little subtraction theory on their various masks, you come to something that looks a bit a specific version of the XI concept art, though less scraggly), sometimes they're friends, sometimes they're foes... For them to summon a powerful, legitimate primal would give them too much of a polarized identity.

The same with the qiqirn, methinks. The Aht Urhgan expansion was basically a middle eastern doppelganger of everything we already knew, and the qiqirn were the goblins of that doubling.

Therefore, it makes sense that, even though they'd need a main element simply for the fact we have to fight some of them and they need to have drops, that they wouldn't take up one of the key slots on the wheel.

The sylph, however, are new. In past Final Fantasies, sylph were very similar to pixies - but here we see them with a new visage (possibly to leave the door open for "XI-Legitimate" pixies later on). They have no ties to ambiguity, are part of the main story, and can fall from grace without messing up how we look at the world.

I wonder if they will take Alexander and make it so it's a machine fortress created by the Garleans infused with the spirit of a Primal so that they can fully control it.

I've got this tingling in the back of my brain that says something very similar to this... Garleans... secret primal... possibly Alexander... I like where you're going with this. [MOOSE APPROVED STAMP]

In the Ul'dah storyline there are tons of references to relationships/marriages between members of different races, and it is treated as totally normal. From this I assumed that all 5 races are the same SPECIES, which would suggest one primal.

That's an interesting way to look at it - humans sure don't all look the same, after all. I mean, none of our historically bottle-necked species have grown tails or horns yet (sadly), but there are sure variations in skin, features, and overall fuzziness (lolmiqo'te). I think you're onto something - one species, many different isolated adaptations.

If the "primal" Siren was indeed messing with us, the we would not be the godless blessed. I'm going to propose an alternate theory: The Lodestone.

There are many ways to take the former sentence, but I like the theory of the latter. I'm going to add that one to the list. The voice-over you hear during the crystal scene sounds a lot like the voice during the awakening, as well. Good theory, sir!

[Alaltus]

That's an interesting way to look at it - humans sure don't all look the same, after all. I mean, none of our historically bottle-necked species have grown tails or horns yet (sadly), but there are sure variations in skin, features, and overall fuzziness (lolmiqo'te). I think you're onto something - one species, many different isolated adaptations.

Ofcourse as it states in the book of Lala that in the beginning there were only Lala and then some other Lala who split off from the group devolved into less superiorly sized beings. It all fits! =P

[Akubikumo]

This really doesn't make sense to me because The Twelve created Hydaelyn. One part I can specifically remember was Llymlaen created the oceans by loosing Leviathan into the world. After observing that Leviathan would eventually flood the land, he was sealed away in Seal Rock. This is Limsa Lominsa folklore though; I don't know if it's actually true.

So if anything, The Twelve created the Primals, going by the above.

Not to harp on about this but: looks liek the wording is key here: If she "loosed" Leviathan, that could mean Leviathan was already in existence. If she straight up created Leviathan than that would imply all the primals are actually creations of the gods (which just raises more difficult questions).

But what I cant really get my head around is this: Im assuming Primals are basically the embodiment or manifestation of the element they represent. And the fact they are called "Primals" I take to mean elemental, as in building blocks of creation. It just seems odd to me that there would be a Navigator before there was an ocean, or a Builder and Traders before there was civilization. Maybe these titles were bestowed on them by us? It may be nothing but i feel like the chronology is important. If Primals were around first its very likely that Althyk was born from one, possibly from an unknown Astral primal? (again, Eden? "let there be light", etc). Also found this little tidbit from the Monk quest line, the one about Midgardsormr:

There was the birth of Althyk, god of time among the Twelve, and in turn, His younger sister Nymeia, goddess of fate. And then there was water, and through it the Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr. Brother Time and Sister Fate, fearing the Falls might fall into the hands of evil, ordered Midgardsormr their protector and warden. Much later, with the arrival of man, would Midgardsormr be worshipped as the guardian deity of Silvertear Falls.

First off: who gave birth to Althyk? If he's the first of the Twelve, this means there was something/someone that predates the Twelve. What/who could that be? Secondly: If Silvertear is the source of all water, why did Llymlaen need Leviathan to make oceans? Is Leviathan also connected to Silvertear Falls?

Not trying to get off-topic here, in fact im trying to narrow down the playing field. just seems like theres quite a few autonomous agents floating around out there we know nothing about. The Twelve are a confusing bunch, they resemble us and use our weapons and tools. Were they always this way or did they change to suit our perspective? Anyone have the text from the creation stories?

[Rassa]

Ah yes, what/whoever our primal is, we should probably assume it pre-dates The Twelve. After all, if the 5 races are all worshiping The Twelve, that would kind of imply we all converted at some point. The question then would be, are there 5 forgotten primals, one for each race? Primals that we all abandoned? Or 1 primal that we all share (which would mean that we are all descended from a common ancestor... right?)?

In the Ul'dah storyline there are tons of references to relationships/marriages between members of different races, and it is treated as totally normal. From this I assumed that all 5 races are the same SPECIES, which would suggest one primal.