[Speculation Discussion] Our Primal

[Akubikumo]

Possibly related, but in the official write-up of the story thus far, Bahamut is referred to as an "Elder Primal", just as Odin is. o.O Food for thought - to what conclusions? I dunno, but I love these threads.

Ah yes, what/whoever our primal is, we should probably assume it pre-dates The Twelve. After all, if the 5 races are all worshiping The Twelve, that would kind of imply we all converted at some point. The question then would be, are there 5 forgotten primals, one for each race? Primals that we all abandoned? Or 1 primal that we all share (which would mean that we are all descended from a common ancestor... right?)? Wouldn't this common, ancient primal be something more all-encompassing? say....Eden?

[Orophin]

Ah yes, what/whoever our primal is, we should probably assume it pre-dates The Twelve.

This really doesn't make sense to me because The Twelve created Hydaelyn. One part I can specifically remember was Llymlaen created the oceans by loosing Leviathan into the world. After observing that Leviathan would eventually flood the land, he was sealed away in Seal Rock. This is Limsa Lominsa folklore though; I don't know if it's actually true.

So if anything, The Twelve created the Primals, going by the above.

[Hulan]

This really doesn't make sense to me because The Twelve created Hydaelyn. One part I can specifically remember was Llymlaen created the oceans by loosing Leviathan into the world. After observing that Leviathan would eventually flood the land, he was sealed away in Seal Rock. This is Limsa Lominsa folklore though; I don't know if it's actually true.

So if anything, The Twelve created the Primals, going by the above.

While I doubt it is the case, you have to remember, this is all belief in world; lore and mythology. It's entirely possible that what is taught about the 12 is a complete fabrication. That being said, in principle I agree with you, usually lore in Final Fantasy games is set in stone and taken at face value.

Cait Sith is an interesting theory, though I would feel like that was a cop out. Odin and Alexander both have some interesting potential as well. As for Odin being battle content, it would not be the first time in a Final Fantasy game where the characters found themselves used and pitted against their previous benefactors.

[Akubikumo]

This really doesn't make sense to me because The Twelve created Hydaelyn. One part I can specifically remember was Llymlaen created the oceans by loosing Leviathan into the world. After observing that Leviathan would eventually flood the land, he was sealed away in Seal Rock. This is Limsa Lominsa folklore though; I don't know if it's actually true.

So if anything, The Twelve created the Primals, going by the above.

Not to harp on about this but: looks liek the wording is key here: If she "loosed" Leviathan, that could mean Leviathan was already in existence. If she straight up created Leviathan than that would imply all the primals are actually creations of the gods (which just raises more difficult questions).

But what I cant really get my head around is this: Im assuming Primals are basically the embodiment or manifestation of the element they represent. And the fact they are called "Primals" I take to mean elemental, as in building blocks of creation. It just seems odd to me that there would be a Navigator before there was an ocean, or a Builder and Traders before there was civilization. Maybe these titles were bestowed on them by us? It may be nothing but i feel like the chronology is important. If Primals were around first its very likely that Althyk was born from one, possibly from an unknown Astral primal? (again, Eden? "let there be light", etc). Also found this little tidbit from the Monk quest line, the one about Midgardsormr:

There was the birth of Althyk, god of time among the Twelve, and in turn, His younger sister Nymeia, goddess of fate. And then there was water, and through it the Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr. Brother Time and Sister Fate, fearing the Falls might fall into the hands of evil, ordered Midgardsormr their protector and warden. Much later, with the arrival of man, would Midgardsormr be worshipped as the guardian deity of Silvertear Falls.

First off: who gave birth to Althyk? If he's the first of the Twelve, this means there was something/someone that predates the Twelve. What/who could that be? Secondly: If Silvertear is the source of all water, why did Llymlaen need Leviathan to make oceans? Is Leviathan also connected to Silvertear Falls?

Not trying to get off-topic here, in fact im trying to narrow down the playing field. just seems like theres quite a few autonomous agents floating around out there we know nothing about. The Twelve are a confusing bunch, they resemble us and use our weapons and tools. Were they always this way or did they change to suit our perspective? Anyone have the text from the creation stories?

[Rassa]

Ah yes, what/whoever our primal is, we should probably assume it pre-dates The Twelve. After all, if the 5 races are all worshiping The Twelve, that would kind of imply we all converted at some point. The question then would be, are there 5 forgotten primals, one for each race? Primals that we all abandoned? Or 1 primal that we all share (which would mean that we are all descended from a common ancestor... right?)?

In the Ul'dah storyline there are tons of references to relationships/marriages between members of different races, and it is treated as totally normal. From this I assumed that all 5 races are the same SPECIES, which would suggest one primal.

[Doho]

On the Alexander evidence, erh... other races use machines. Kobolds, Goblins?

[Anonymoose]

Siren was already confirmed to be boss content, so it'd be quite odd if we had to fight our own Primal.
...
seeing Alexander as ours makes sense.

Remember, we did fight Alexander, so fighting our own primal wouldn't be so strange (Even if it did end up being Siren). The sylphs specifically say that the Primals darken hearts and bring destruction. If a primal other than our worshipped Twelve got involved with us, it'd make sense that we'd try to take it out.

We're devoted to The Twelve whereas Primals are beastmen-orientated.

That's also stated by the Path; but just because we're devoted to The Twelve doesn't mean that something OTHER than The Twelve is what's giving us The Echo. Personally, I think that they've stated too many times that something other than our own gods might be getting involved giving us the Echo to discount it entirely just because we prefer The Twelve.

Then again - Yoshida-san's post sounds pretty specific, no? Retcon?

On the Alexander evidence, erh... other races use machines. Kobolds, Goblins?

Good point! Edited.

I'd also like to bring into play that many of those who learn that we have The Echo, especially the Emprie, consider it extremely negative. It could very well be that this is because it deviates from The Twelve.

[Ricky]

I'd imagine each of our races has one, because all 3 of your suggestions make sense in light if recent info. That horse sound at the end of "End of an Era" when Louisoix smiles implies to me that Odin appeared and slapped Bahamut out of the sky

Also Louisoix is supposed to be alive or at least possible to see him again in ARR based on some Reinhart translations from yesterday

Unfortunately most of the summons we're aware of seem claimed by beastmen so I don't know who would represent Roegadyn. I was going to say Leviathan (sp?) bit Sahagin seem to have him claimed

[Mudd]

I was under the impression that Nophica was the one singing to us.
However, I've really no evidence by which to stand on beyond that she is of the Second Moon (Second Month) and Dalamud was the literal Second Moon ;v

Edit: Also, I wonder if they will take Alexander and make it so it's a machine fortress created by the Garleans infused with the spirit of a Primal so that they can fully control it.

[RoxyLalonde]

Perhaps it is like crusader or Knights of the Round... A multi being summon