Why do we have classes AND jobs again?

[NoloeTazier]

We can sugar coat it all we want, Classes limit Jobs. We can argue all we want about Classes > Jobs in solo play (which isn't the case in 1) but really when you can switch jobs on a whim, why would anyone play Pugilist over Monk when they can just switch to WHM and buff themselves then switch to Monk and deal more damage.

The point I've made in the past is there's no way we can have a 2 Job from 1 Class system. Such as Gladiator -> Paladin Gladiator -> Dark Knight. Gladiator as a Class has abilities to help Paladin tank and is limited to Sword and Shield because of the Armory system. No one is going to want to play Dark Knight with a Sword and Shield and use Shield Bash and Sword combos. Sure 2.0 is going to change abilities and we have to wait and see these changes, but they haven't said they're going to change the current system of 15 abilities (which may be increased and will increase with level cap(s)) and 5 from your 2 sub-jobs.

With the Class and Armory system we're looking at a 1 Class to 1 Job system. The only one I can think of that works is Archer -> Bard Archer -> Ranger, but again with the limited armory system that would be 3 Bow types. But at least Ranger would have abilities that make it the classic Archer abilities which people want. (They also want Crossbows and Guns)

There's only 2 reasons we will use Classes in 2.0: 1) to unlock a Job 2) the Class only content they plan to implement. But if rewards are Class only, then I would be willing to bet that people would shun this content because they would never wear the gear and it would bog down their inventory. It'd be mostly vanity pieces.

If Classes got their abilities from the Job I could see how that system could work and you could have multiple jobs tied to 1 Class, but again who would want to play the Class? Classes restrict Jobs, Armory System restricts both. But with the current set up I just can't see a way to have multiple jobs tied to many of the classes and even if they are, they won't be that much different from the other job as the abilities are all shared. I didn't get to play FFXI for very long, but I believe the way the Job system works is just right.

We'll be getting redesigned abilities and maybe a few new abilities in 2.0 but I still feel the system is broken and limiting. Everytime we want to introduce a new Class/Job we have to 'invent' a new Weapon for the Armory system. A system I talked about before in game to a few of my friends was, why not just use the Job Stone system. Whenever you want to change Jobs, you change your Job Stone. This allows people to equip Sword/Shield to Warrior, Hand2Hand on WHM, etc. Course the only thing I could think of again was the FFXI skill system. People like to goof around and have freedom, so why not allow it, the armory system won't.

[Recycler]

the class is a trunk and you don't go back?

This. The jobs being a strict superset of the class, there is no reason to go back, but you can still switch to another class or job of a class.

[Colvin]

We'll be getting redesigned abilities and maybe a few new abilities in 2.0 but I still feel the system is broken and limiting. Everytime we want to introduce a new Class/Job we have to 'invent' a new Weapon for the Armory system. A system I talked about before in game to a few of my friends was, why not just use the Job Stone system. Whenever you want to change Jobs, you change your Job Stone. This allows people to equip Sword/Shield to Warrior, Hand2Hand on WHM, etc. Course the only thing I could think of again was the FFXI skill system. People like to goof around and have freedom, so why not allow it, the armory system won't.

Goodness, I wasn't aware there was already a thread or I might have resurrected that. (I guess I should have thought about it).

Anyways, I think RDM from GLD, and DRK from WAR would make more sense. You just make 2-handed swords and scythes that are pretty much axes (from a database perspective) with different models. Not that I am defending the system... just saying.

For the RDM magic, you would have CNJ and THM as your minimum 15 classes so you have SOME magic, then add dots and -EN spells... you know... if they wanted to go the FFXI route.

I know some people that have pretty much built RDM using GLD and it really showed the diversity of GLD, but that brings in the point, if you can make RDM with GLD as it is now, why not just have RDM and get rid of GLD...?

[whoopeeragon]

I direct you to this thread which is also quite recent and expands on plenty of suggestions and ideas:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...espective-Jobs

Personally, I'm very accepting of both systems because in the end, they're independent of one another save for the lvl 30 branching off. It's just that 1.0 didn't expand on the class system much - they aren't enough abilities to complement the versatility that classes were meant to be. This is one aspect I'll much like them to look into from vanilla FFXIV, where classes were probably TOO versatile (coughthaumaturgecough) but they could try and reflect that.

Current 1.0 did not handle classes as well as expected, but the potential still lies in that classes can become very formidable with versatility. For instance, PvP is one I can think of, but even outside of PvP, small parties or solo adventuring through the game, classes could be much better than jobs.

Classes need more abilities, more class-only abilities that can only be used by classes. Jobs have their own specialised abilities which unlock with quests - classes could potentially do the same at the same levels, except majority of those abilities should be able to be used by other classes. Many abilities from vanilla FFXIV I would love to see come back as class-specific abilities because they complemented well with the versatility, which is what classes is really in the end, strong for.

Yes, you can argue that RDM is as versatile as can come, so why not scrap the armoury system and go with RDM? Problem is, as versatile RDM is, it can't match up to how versatile a class can be. Sure, you can chuck CNJ and THM abilities onto a GLA and off you go. But what about the other classes' abilities? Featherfoot and Second Wind from PGL? Bloodbath from MRD? AoE skills from LNC? TP gain with quelling strike from ARC? There's so many ways that classes can become versatile even WITH the current system, as limiting in class-options as it is.

We already have an implication that FFXIV: ARR will have new abilities (Conjurer discipline has Water spell in alpha). We are also getting arcanist with debuffs which will aid immensely in solo/light party situations where debuffing will lead to easier fights. Systems are going to change come ARR, job system and armoury system. So we can wait for the information before we really debate this point - especially since the point for current 1.0 is null as 1.0 has officially ended.

[Colvin]

I direct you to this thread which is also quite recent and expands on plenty of suggestions and ideas:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...espective-Jobs

Well do we want to bring the old one back up? Honestly, if people are still on the forums, it means they have nothing else to do. This isnt like any other game release where there is floods of new material coming out with fuel for speculation so most of us, I think, have very little to do.

So speculate on! you are bored enough to be here ! :P

[NoloeTazier]

Goodness, I wasn't aware there was already a thread or I might have resurrected that. (I guess I should have thought about it).

Anyways, I think RDM from GLD, and DRK from WAR would make more sense. You just make 2-handed swords and scythes that are pretty much axes (from a database perspective) with different models. Not that I am defending the system... just saying.

For the RDM magic, you would have CNJ and THM as your minimum 15 classes so you have SOME magic, then add dots and -EN spells... you know... if they wanted to go the FFXI route.

I know some people that have pretty much built RDM using GLD and it really showed the diversity of GLD, but that brings in the point, if you can make RDM with GLD as it is now, why not just have RDM and get rid of GLD...?

lol its all good, the topic always pops up from time to time.

Problem with taking Red Mage from Gladiator again is the Armory and Class system. Red Mage would have no use with the majority of abilities unless it was a new tanking job. The only 'real' way to make Red Mage is to build it from a whole new Class. Such as examples in the past: Fencer -> Red Mage. Just like we can't have Summoner without building a whole new Class i.e. Arcanist. Many new jobs we want, will have to come from base Classes because there's just no way to branch them off what we currently have. (except for my example of Ranger, Ranger would be able to branch off Archer without too much difference, but that will be a rare case)

[Reika]

Goodness, I wasn't aware there was already a thread or I might have resurrected that. (I guess I should have thought about it).

Anyways, I think RDM from GLD, and DRK from WAR would make more sense. You just make 2-handed swords and scythes that are pretty much axes (from a database perspective) with different models. Not that I am defending the system... just saying.

For the RDM magic, you would have CNJ and THM as your minimum 15 classes so you have SOME magic, then add dots and -EN spells... you know... if they wanted to go the FFXI route.

I know some people that have pretty much built RDM using GLD and it really showed the diversity of GLD, but that brings in the point, if you can make RDM with GLD as it is now, why not just have RDM and get rid of GLD...?

I said in another thread that MRD is a terrible idea to become DRK. there are more than the 5 Job skills that DRK would need added to make it a DRK, and MRD only has Bloodbath, no magic. It would also have more too much HP. DRK needs its own class to level up, so does RDM, because GLD doesnt have anything a RDM would use. It would make it a tank class because that is what kind of skills GLD has.

[Colvin]

Problem with taking Red Mage from Gladiator again is the Armory and Class system. Red Mage would have no use with the majority of abilities unless it was a new tanking job. The only 'real' way to make Red Mage is to build it from a whole new Class. Such as examples in the past: Fencer -> Red Mage. Just like we can't have Summoner without building a whole new Class i.e. Arcanist. Many new jobs we want, will have to come from base Classes because there's just no way to branch them off what we currently have. (except for my example of Ranger, Ranger would be able to branch off Archer without too much difference, but that will be a rare case)

I'm not so sure, alot of the GLD abilities I would still use, (more so if they didnt restrict sub abilities so much with jobs) like shield bash. People would have to just change their notions about how RDM plays. I worked my gear off to play RDM Melee in FFXI and most people still treated it is a back-row class regardless of the fact that in most FF games it ISNT back row. GLD basis might give it a chance to be a little more front row. Also, we dont know how they are changing the base abilities in ARR... maybe they will have forethought enough to address some of your issues...?

[Zenaku]

Each class would have two Jobs for example GLA could become pld or Dark knight that one of the example yoshi-p said. So class is the base of the job system without it they wont be a link to more jobs being one class.

[Rhomagus]

To Colvin's OP:

So I have had alot of discussion lately with friends and players about the continued use of the armory system and this has come up a few times:

Why do we still have both the Armory AND Jobs?
So that we have a balance between solo play and choice vs. party play and tradition
I really just want to get people's viable opinions about the continued existance of both.
To start. I love classes. I love being able to set abilities freely that I've already learned. I love mixing and matching abilities. I loved the subjob system in XI but I like the class system more. Those are my opinions which are viable enough for me.

1. I know that they are not going to remove Armory and that it's existance is a forgone conclusion
2. I know that the current opinion is that, for the most part, Armory is solo and Job is party
3. Currently most of the discussion has been about how we can differentiate between them to make them more individual

What I would like to see is if people think it is even smart to keep around.
I think it's in their best interest to keep them around. I think they could provide more incentives in some instances for both systems, i.e. higher stat bonuses / penalties for equipping a job stone, make GLA a bit more effective solo and make BLM a bit more effective party wise, create more class specific gear that focuses on stat boost, create more job specific gear that focuses on ability enhancement / cooldown. I personally think they should open up job weapons though. Classes should be defined by their weapon while Jobs are specialized by their role.
for posterity:

My Opinion

I think they should get rid of classes. Then they said they were bringing out jobs, I thought they would be a kind of "Job Change" like in FF1 where you were what you were before, but with more. I know people wanted to ability to have situationally specific jobs, but I have never liked the restrictions on selectable abilities. The arguement that it was necessary to make the jobs more play-specific in parties is kind of moot because if you chose to equip the party-specific abilities, those would inherantly take up slots and, therefore, lower the other abilities you could equip. As it stands, I see no reason why you should NEED to make Gladiator a seperate class than Paladin to just give Paladins the option to select different abilities. I found it very limiting in comparison to previous Job-based final fantasy games (XI not withstanding).I actually agree with you here. I'll post reasoning below.

I should also note that I realize 2.0 is supposedly totally different and how they will approach abilities really isnt known yet. I just want to see where the discussion will go.

DISCUSS!

I actually was hoping when Jobs were first announced that it wouldn't be a completely different system but an ad hoc to the Armory.

You could make the equivalent of a Red Mage in the original XIV. Gladiator with Cure, Protect, Poison, Fire, Sacrifice, Thunder, Red Lotus Blade, and Siphon MP would've been a RDM equivalent.

What would make it better though?

Say you had all of the above abilities on your action bar. If you had a system that recognized what Job you were setting yourself up for by analyzing the abilities you had on your bar and recommended certain bonuses by equipping a Job stone that you had unlocked.

Or a system like BLU from XI where you had different stats attached to certain abilities. Putting together certain abilities in conjunction would improve upon other abilities. Even better, equipping a certain combination of abilities and Job stones could unlock more abilities.

Let's say you wanted to play a more caster centric Red Mage. That's fine, just equip the same abilities again but instead of being Gladiator equip a wand or staff and be a CNJ or THM. The system could recognize you were still trying to be a Red Mage just with a different weapon now. This way you can still level your Red Mage but gain proficiency in your staff/wand skill.

I'd always wanted the system to play out like that. If you decided to play a job you would knowingly sacrifice certain aspects in relation to the current set up you had available to you. You'd still level your weapon's efficiency as you did in XI and you could have a separate Job level that would unlock new abilities when you combined certain class abilities. This way you could still level your proficiency in your weapons while leveling the Job you wanted and vice versa.

That was how I was hoping it would play out, or something similar to that effect but it didn't. Instead we got the system that we have and I'm okay with it. I certainly wouldn't want to lose the ability to set abilities that I had already learned. I don't want a strict system like XI or other caste skill trees.

I genuinely like the openness of the class system even though I feel to this day that it could have been handled differently, I still enjoy it for it's intended purpose.