Why do we have classes AND jobs again?

[Rhomagus]

Jobs themselves were an unnecessary addition to the game, only added because some of the community felt the game wasn't "Final Fantasy enough" unless they get to walk around in nostalgic gear and fancy titles. With that said, when Yoshida decided to implement them he should have abolished Classes. People who will pick up the game to play as a Black Mage will be confused and wonder why they have to level a 'Thaumaturge' first.

While I disagree with the abolition of classes, I don't disagree with this reasoning. Similar thing happened in XI.

New Player: "Oh, sweet I want to be a Dark Knight. You can be that right? Casting Black Magic and blowing stuff up while being a badass looking... Galka, whatever that is, it's badass... is going to be so awesome."

Final Fantasy XI: You can choose from Warrior, Monk, Thief, Red Mage, White Mage, Black Mage

New Player: "What about Dark Knight? Where's the Dark Knight?"

Final Fantasy XI: You can choose from Warrior, Monk, Thief, Red Mage, White Mage, Black Mage

New Player: *types* D-A-R-K K-N-I-G-H-T *speaks into headset slowly and deliberately* "Daaark Kniiiight"

Final Fantasy XI: You can choose from Warrior, Monk, Thief, Red Mage, White Mage, Black Mage

New Player: "Fine I'll just be the closest thing. Red Mages can use swords right?"

Final Fantasy XI: You can choose from Warrior, Monk, Thief, Red Mage, White Mage, Black Mage

New Player: "Red Mage it is..."

Upon Login

New Player: "How do I move?"

Final Fantasy XI: If you're knocked unconscious you can set your Home Point at a crystal in town.

New Player: "How do I move?"

Final Fantasy XI: If you're knocked unconscious you can set your Home Point at a crystal in town.

New Player: *types* H-o-w do I move...

Random Player: Use the number pad. 4 is left 6 is right 8 is forward and 2 is backwards. Use the arrow keys to move the camera and the tab key to select targets!

New Player: *thinks* seriously wtf.

Random Player: So you're a Galka... and a Red Mage?

New Player: Ya, they didn't have DRK so I chose Red Mage.

Random Player: Ohhhh you know Galka have an incredibly low MND stat and MP pool right.

New Player: Ya but Red Mage is like a sort of Jack of all trades job so I figured...

Random Player: You'll be healing.

New Player: *thinks* seriously wtf.

Random Player: I've known a couple of badass Galka Red Mages though. Their really good with keeping their MP in check and don't waste anything at all.

New Player: Right on I'll just be a badass like them then...

Random Player: They rarely get parties because people can see what race you are when they lfg.

New Player: *thinks* seriously wtf.

Random Player: You'll need to party if you're going to be playing a backline job.

New Player: But I'm a Galka with awesome HP and I'm a Red Mage with a sword.

Random Player: Hivemind (before it was a cool word) bro.

New Player: ugh. Screw it. I'm just going to be a badass like those other badass Galkas.

Later that day

New Player: "Wow that took a long time but now I'm finally level 10. What do I do now? I know I'll ask someone here in town." /s "Where do I go now that I'm level 10?"

Random Player 2: Valkurm Dunes. Don't worry I'm a really cool guy who's not a prick and I'll probably become your best friend for the rest of the time you play this game so I'll guide you there.

New Player: Awesome thanks.

Journey ensues

New Player: "lol let's kill this lizard real quick it's looking at me funny and I've been messing them up in Gustaberg" *attacks random lizard*

Random Player: Dude that lizards is like 3 levels too hard for you right now.

New Player: "What!? Whatever it looks exactly like all of the other lizards I've been killing. Trust me bro I got this."
*dies*

30 minutes later after Random Player is finally able to get a hold of someone who has access to a raise spell

New Player: Wow thanks man. Where do I find Phoenix Downs so I don't have to wait inconvenience someone to come all the way out to my location when I die.

Annoyed WHM friend of random player: There are no Phoenix Downs. Just don't die.

New Player: Okay. It's cool, I messed up that one time but I'm a badass Galka Red Mage so it won't happen again.

Random Player: Well at least you didn't level down.

New Player: "What"

Random Player: "Didn't you just hit 10?" "I didn't see you level down"

New Player: "What do you mean level down?"

Random Player: "If you die too much you'll lose experience so then you'll level from 10 back down to 9"

New Player: But all my gear is level 10, what happens then.

Random Player: You can't wear your gear.

New Player: *thinks* seriously wtf

Arrival at the Dunes

Random Douchenozzle: /sh GOB TRAIN TO ZONE!
Random Douchenozzle calls for help!

New Player: Oh who my compass is showing me something.

Final Fantasy XI: Run directly into danger whenever you see this you'll get no experience or drops if you kill a monster that a player has called for help on.

New Player: "Why am I the only one attacking this goblin"

*Random Douchenozzle zones*

The Goblin Tinkerer hits New Player for 230 points of damage
New Player is KO'd.
New Player attains level 9

New Player: "FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU!"

/sh Looking for Paladin please /tell Picky Leader.
/sh Looking for Ranger please /tell Picky Leader.

New Player: /tell Picky Leader: Can I join your group?
Picky Leader: Are you a Paladin?
>>>Picky Leader: No
Picky Leader<<<<: Are you a Ranger?
>>>>Picky Leader: No
Picky Leader<<<<: Are you a Dark Knight?
>>>>Picky Leader: I didn't see Dark Knight as an option. I'm a Red Mage.
Picky Leader>>>>: Oh that's cool, I might be able to fit you in our WHM has to leave soon.
>>>>Picky Leader: Awesome.

New Player is raised by Awesome Random Nice White Mage

>>>>Picky Leader: So where are you.
Picky Leader<<<<: I just zoned into Valkurm Dunes.
>>>>Picky Leader: brt.

5 minutes later Picky Leader arrives

Picky Leader<<<<: You're a fatass Galka?
>>>>Picky Leader: No I'm a badass Galka!
Picky Leader<<<<: You're a Red Mage?
>>>>Picky Leader: Ya I want to cast Black Magic and fight up close so I picked Red Mage which is the next best thing. I figured it'd be good training for when I get to be a Dark Knight.
Picky Leader<<<<: You know that Dark's shouldn't be casting in battle right?
>>>>Picky Leader: But the strategy guide said...
Picky Leader<<<<: Strategy Guide? Not the Brady Games strategy guide right?
>>>>Picky Leader: ....
Picky Leader>>>>: Listen, by the time you're a level 18 Red Mage you're going to want to get your subjob.
>>>>Picky Leader: Cool! Then I'll be a Dark Knight.
Picky Leader<<<<: No, you'll want to level Warrior and Thief for that.
>>>>Picky Leader: ...
>>>>Picky Leader: What will happen to my Red Mage? What about all the abilities I've learned and money I've spent on scrolls.
Picky Leader<<<<: You'll only be able to use some of the spells as a Dark Knight, most of which you won't actually use at that drops your DPS and you're a melee DD.
>>>>Picky Leader: So I shouldn't cast black magic as a Dark Knight because it's a melee and I shouldn't fight with a word as a Red Mage because it's a Backline job.
Picky Leader<<<<: Yes.
>>>>Picky Leader: But they're meant to do both.
Picky Leader<<<<: ...
>>>>Picky Leader: Well it's taken me all day to get this party but I've got to head to bed. Thanks for learning me a few things about the game. btw when will I get to be a Dark Knight.
Picky Leader<<<<: Well first you'll want to get your subjob. Then you'll want to walk your ass all the way back to Bastok where you came from so that you can changes to a different lower level job. You shouldn't choose warrior as RDM isn't a good sub for WAR nor is it a good sub for THF. You can try leveling MNK solo to ten but then you'll probably want to start leveling WAR to 10 then you can use MNK as a sub for WAR. Once you get WAR to 20 you'll want to level MNK to at least 18. Then you'll want to level WAR to 30 with MNK as your sub. Once you get WAR to 30 you can unlock DRK. Before you level DRK you'll want to level THF to 37 and finish off WAR to 37. Then you can level DRK to 75.
>>>>Picky Leader: What about MNK and RDM.
Picky Leader<<<<: You shouldn't use either of those as subs for DRK. No one will invite you if they see you subbing those.
>>>>Picky Leader: So I have to level 2 jobs to more than three times the level I am now in order to play the job I wanted to play as from the beginning.
Picky Leader<<<<: Yep.
>>>>Picky Leader: Well at least I'll have all that experience saved up for when I start my DRK.
Picky Leader<<<<: You'll start DRK at level 1.

New Player: "FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU"

10 years later

New Player: "Heard they fixed that crap game XIV from launch. I think this time I'll go Black Mage. Maybe this time I actually get to cast some Black Magic!

Final Fantasy XIV: Choose your Class: Gladiator, Pugilist, Lancer, Archer, Marauder, Conjurer, Thamaturge

New Player: What the hell is a Pug-ilist? Where's Black Mage?

Final Fantasy XIV: Thamaturges can cast arcane magics.

New Player: What the hell is a Thanamage?

Final Fantasy XIV: Once you reach level 30 you....

*New Player exits Final Fantasy XIV*

[Gentaro]

That put a smile on my face

[Sanne]

I hope FFXIV does a better job that skills from different classes are usefull.

In FFXI warrior with sub blm was useless, the spells especially on higher level would just be resisted, or didn't add enough damage to be worth to use.

In ultima online you could combine warrior with magery, off course it was a much more simple system, but you actually could do reasonable damage with a weapon or with magic, not so good as the pure versions, but you do had advances, better protection then pure mage, you didn't need to be in close range to start doing damage as a warrior needed etc.

So a warrior, mage and warrior/mage all had their advances and disadvances.

I hope to see this also in FFXIV, were there is no best way to play, just different ways, and that certain skill combinations work as well as other skill combinations.

It will be harder to create, because FFXIV is a lot more complex then old Ultima Online.

But I do hope they find a way to make classes interesting to play.
While jobs seem to be more restrickted, because you can only equip skills from a few classes, the classes should shine because they can combine a lot more.

So I think they should look at the skills, and make most of them worth equiping with different classes, so that being a class has benefits. Of course they should balance it in such a way that jobs don't become useless.
Not an easy task...

[Rhomagus]

That put a smile on my face

Glad you liked it. I might change the names to one word [i.e. Newplayer, Randomplayer, Finalfantasyxi, Pickyleader etc.] and the text colors for giggles.

It was frustrating yet nostalgic writing it down. Might be coming down with the Stockholm.

[Gentaro]

I agree that XI had many useless combos like DRK/BLM, but at least not every DRK was the same as it currently is in XIV right now. The possibilities of customizing the job you play are minimal.

But thats not the point of this topic,I don't think its as bad as in XI, the class/job remains the same you just get certain other abilities. The only annoying thing is that you have to lvl another class to 15, no idea how much of an issue that will be in 2.0 tho...


I'd rather see the classes dissapear as well

[Orca]

I think its going to be really difficult to make classes outstanding soloers without making them so good they encroach upon jobs. I mean theres a lot of areas where classes would need to be kept toned down so they dont outshine a job, or a job needs to be less self sufficient to validate the existance of a class. This isn't fair on either, they shouldn't have restrictions imposed on them to make their twin more viable, and this goes for future multiple class jobs like Glad > PLD/DRK.

Personally id rather classes went long ago, but it is too late now, they wont go, ever. Since thats the case, id rather see something different to what we have now. Please excuse the wishful thinking here, im aware SE would never do this, but in a perfect world, id have this;

1. Play Gladiator Class at lv1 (DPS & Tanking options, can solo AND group)
2. Reach Lv 30 Glad (stops gaining exp)
3. PLD quest unlocks at Glad 30, PLD starts at lv 30, learns its own tanking skills, has access to mrd and conj skills.
4. DRK quest unlocks at Glad 30, DRK starts at lv 30, learns its own dps skills, has access to mrd and thau skills.
5. Classes end at lv 30, so theres no need to take EVERYTHING to 50 just to get subclass skills.

A line doesnt need to be drawn in the sand between solo and grouping, PLD and DRK should both be capable of soloing their quests for exp AND getting a group. Just 2-3 specific actions being added to every job we have now could eradicate any need for its class, and some dont even need that and can solo just fine as they are right now. Whatever they do, i mean, ill live with it and accept it. I've stuck around with SE this far and seen their worst, i know what theyre willing to change and what they arent.

[Zumi]

They should just take out classes because after they added jobs no reason to play them. It just creates confusion for new players.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Why do we have classes AND jobs again?

Cause it's SE's way to piss me off on how a class can be equally effective Job.

It is only there to make you mad, it sure as hell makes me mad. I am not sure how it is with other classes, but Black Mage should dominate Thaumaturge damage 100% of the time.

If you give up defense for power it should show it. Thaumaturge can cure/stoneskin/raise. Black Mage can barely do that. You have to be smart with Black Mage. Yet they are both equal in casting strength. That is dumb.

[Rhomagus]

I think its going to be really difficult to make classes outstanding soloers without making them so good they encroach upon jobs. I mean theres a lot of areas where classes would need to be kept toned down so they dont outshine a job, or a job needs to be less self sufficient to validate the existance of a class. This isn't fair on either, they shouldn't have restrictions imposed on them to make their twin more viable, and this goes for future multiple class jobs like Glad > PLD/DRK.

Personally id rather classes went long ago, but it is too late now, they wont go, ever. Since thats the case, id rather see something different to what we have now. Please excuse the wishful thinking here, im aware SE would never do this, but in a perfect world, id have this;

1. Play Gladiator Class at lv1 (DPS & Tanking options, can solo AND group)
2. Reach Lv 30 Glad (stops gaining exp)
3. PLD quest unlocks at Glad 30, PLD starts at lv 30, learns its own tanking skills, has access to mrd and conj skills.
4. DRK quest unlocks at Glad 30, DRK starts at lv 30, learns its own dps skills, has access to mrd and thau skills.
5. Classes end at lv 30, so theres no need to take EVERYTHING to 50 just to get subclass skills.

A line doesnt need to be drawn in the sand between solo and grouping, PLD and DRK should both be capable of soloing their quests for exp AND getting a group. Just 2-3 specific actions being added to every job we have now could eradicate any need for its class, and some dont even need that and can solo just fine as they are right now. Whatever they do, i mean, ill live with it and accept it. I've stuck around with SE this far and seen their worst, i know what theyre willing to change and what they arent.

I have my own wishlist that probably won't happen either but that's why we have the in between system we have now.

I want my character to be my character. There's no reason why he should suddenly not be able to wear certain clothes because he has a different tool in his hand. He might be less effective in using said tool but what the hell is with this magical barrier keeping you from wearing clothes?

I want to have access to everything I've learned. I want to be able to attach everything I've learned regardless of what tool I have in my hand. The game should be able to recognize and offer bonuses by analyzing my ability combinations and positively reinforce me to play a certain role accordingly.

It takes a little more thought from the players but the system is still pretty rigid for party play and would be open ended enough for soloers.

Nix the association of Jobs and Classes. Make Jobs have their own levels where you purchase abilities with experience points and have weapon proficiencies level with your Classes.

i.e. if you're leveling Gladiator your hit rate and attack are increased with each subsequent level of Gladiator. Abilities are unlocked through applying a spirit bond (experience points) to your Job stone. You could simultaneously level Gladiator while you leveled your Warrior Job stone. Weaponskills would be tied to Classes. Job stones were unlocked by questing and equipping abilities learned via Classes. Certain combinations of abilities would be granted a bonus in presence of a Job stone and certain Job stones would only be active in conjunction with certain abilities posted to your action bar. Certain Job stones could add proficiencies and deficiencies in certain weapons.

With this system you could still use different weapons on different jobs. Your jobs would still be directly tied and defined by the abilities you had set. This would force you into a certain role and Job stone bonuses would encourage you to specialize even more.

Forego Job stone activation in order to have a more balanced solo experience. Job stone activation not only comes with boons to Job specific stats but also comes with detriments to stats not pertinent to that job. You'd gain experience at a slower rate to apply to your job stone but you could still solo your job abilities if you so choose.

I'd much rather have this system. It provides the freedom of the Armoury with the nostalgia of the old Final Fantasy games. Allowing XIV to be wholly unique while still having that familiar feel.

Giving gameplay for both hardcore and casual audiences. Solo and party centric players.

[Ralliare]

They need to make classes distinct enough to warrant using them.

Nothing more, nothing less.

That's the opposite of what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to be free to be what you want to be and do. JOBS are supposed to be the distinct things with a set role.