Will Relics create the same problems that they did in FFXI?

[Guevara]

SE made relics available very early on in FFXI's lifecycle in 2003. They were the top weapons until 2010 when abyssea came out and gave us Empyrean weapons some of which were better then relics.

Relics created an artificial ceiling on weapons in FFXI in that no weapon released in that 10 year time span could be better then a relic or have higher damage on it.

Now we have FFXIV they released relics early on as well. Are we going to see a repeat of what happened in FFXI where every new weapon that comes out has to be worse then relics? Or will we actually see them come out with new weapons that are better then relics?

At Lv50 relics will be the best weapons.

After Lv-cap raise, we will have higher level weapons better then current relics, but will also have a new hard quest to upgrade our relics and make them the best weapons out there.

Basically same as it is now.

[Fadigre]

Guess I'm a little late to the party!

I've noticed a common theme is this thread and that's the comparison between XI's relic and XIV's relic. We don't really know where the game is expected to turn next so what I'm about to say may turn out to be stupidly stoopid - XIV is not XI
Who said relic have to be the strongest!


Before I jump on the bandwagon I'm just going to share some information regarding my XI career so that if I'm wrong, forum-goers are welcome to post in several different threads how wrong I am.
I didn't do any end-game in XI. Being only in my mid-teens On Cait Sith I wasn't really comfortable with the european end-game shell as it was full of (what felt like) middle-aged men. The most end-game I ever did was a few Dynamis runs until 8am in the morning, finishing CoP and floor 100 of Nyzul.


/bandwagon

Speedruns doesn't take skill beyond knowing what the fuck you're doing and how to play your job because the relic specific speedruns relied on everyone being on point which consists of:

-Knowing how to listen.
-Knowing how to gear your job. (Dedication.)
-Knowing how to play your job probably (Dedication to learn.)
-Knowing the battles. (Dedication to learn a run properly.)

Is this not what XI was, too? What did XI have out of what has just been said that XIV doesn't have?
I feel like I must be missing something.

From experience (whatever that means to the people of the world) the only time when a fight can go pear-shaped is when the strategy requires a party-member to exercise decission making. If players are not required to make a decission then the content can be ran through mindlessly until Dalamud's dawn.


Is XI that hard?

So what exactly was it that made XI tough and XIV so pathetically easy? There's only one answer I can think of and that's because XI had fewer relics on show; was this related to genuine difficulty? Correct me if I'm wrong (no, seriously, correct me) but didn't XI's relic require you to just farm a shit-load of beastmen currency? Is that not worse than what we currently have in XIV?

This requires
-No skill on the player's half (see Elexia's quote)
-What was widely accepted to be gigantum amounts of gil
-Collossal amount of grinding time

If a similar system was implemented in XIV which required you to grind content over and over (which is the exact thing players have complained about) the playerbase might have been pushed too far. What if... somebody died from the outrage.

Like, in real life.

Can you imagine the news?!


Wrapping up

Maybe I've spent too long on my soapbox here contributing discussion regarding something I've no idea about but didn't XI rely on the RNG just as much as XIV. Granted XI doesn't have materia melding but isn't that just a short-term RNG that costs money rather than time, replacing dungeon grinding?

To get your first sweet piece of gear and then your second piece from end-game linkshell in XI is going to take just as long to get that drop from Cutter's Cry you've wanted, surely.


Focus XIV

I'm surprised this thread became so large!
When relics were announced wasn't it also announced that they were to be upgradeable? We don't really know what level we're going to end up at in 3 years time but imagine down the line we're level 100 after several 5 level increases and for each 5 level increase we have to upgrade our relic further. This quest has potential to end up huge. It also had potential to be a pain in the backside when a new job comes out that you've recently got to cap (let's say uhm... Blue mage) and you'd like to get the relic for it (it's got like 3,000 STR. Seriously, get it). Now you have to start way back at the level 50 weapon and slowly upgrade it to your level 100. May the 12 have mercy.

[Crevox]

he doesnt have one so his argument of not in this game is void

Cute, but I don't want a relic in 1.0 so I didn't even go for it. The only relic weapon I have interest in is Summoner.

[Nero]

I'm not going to all that Stuff posted allready.. but 1 thing..

FFXIV Relics are more AF Weapons than everything else. ( Read the PDF and you will see that "Legendary Weapons" are around the Corner i.e. Excalibur ).

[Mamakat]

They might be up-gradable, but they might just make a new quest line in general. There will be more advanced jobs besides SMN introduced, and they didn't add in new Relics in XI to accommodate the new job additions, they added in mythics and then empyrean.

The relics are currently the hardest weapons to get, but look how many started popping up shortly after the quest was released, and then how many people started getting more than one after that. I'm looking forward to seeing how they change the quest with the new hamlet. I'm also looking forward to what the new Titan weapons will bring :3

[Altena]

Speedruns doesn't take skill beyond knowing what the fuck you're doing and how to play your job because the relic specific speedruns relied on everyone being on point which consists of:

Hmm if I am not mistaken, the very definition of skill is everything you just listed....

-Knowing how to listen.
-Knowing how to gear your job. (Dedication.)
-Knowing how to play your job probably (Dedication to learn.)
-Knowing the battles. (Dedication to learn a run properly.)

Let me just break what you just listed, 3 things which I would class under the "player skill" category. Let me pull up a dictionary so you know that I am not pulling this from my backside to prove the point.

Knowing how to gear your job
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well
Knowing how to play your job properly
a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience.
Knowing the battles
As above.

As for knowing how to listen, that is a social skill.

It doesn't take dedication to know how to play an easy game. As it was stated in previous comments not by me, that there are a lot of good players out there, which is why you see a large number of relics.

Hamlet Defense. Speedruns in dungeons (everyone can benefit, but it's generally done for the one(s) on that quest portion. Garuda. NM fights in stronghold. Faction Leves. Farming Currency (to speed it up). Ifrit Extreme. Caravans. Behest (though these can be solo'd I guess.)

Not sure about you, but I completed all my seals using a reasonably fair system, that also included provisioner advantages, which included little to no manipulating - as each member was willing to participate to further their OWN character - and that is exactly what happened.

Regarding dungeons - All of the people I did this with were either up to, or beyond this part of the quest, so it benefits themselves greatly, and it benefits the people that are beyond the quest as more people caught up = more people for other content in the later part of the questline.

Garuda - many people still need weapons. Totems were passed to them by a good chunk of us on relic quests. This should be a non-issue as anyone with half a brain and no desire to get a relic will want to complete this.

Stronghold NM's - takes 10 mins with 5-6 people. If you have friends, then this is another non-issue.

etcetcetc my point with this is yes it is a group quest, which is another reason why you see so many relics. If you are struggling with help with this, it is not because you suck at manipulating/controlling other people, it is because you aren't playing with like minded or skilled players that wish to go for a relic themselves. Difference between both games is in XI you have 18 people working for 1 person's relic. In XIV you have 8 people working for their own relics. Help to get helped? Quite a simple logic.

Your next point was currency farming. You creatively broke my quote up to sound worse then what I stated, so let me put it back together in once sentence.

manipulating other people to help you, mindlessly farming currency

XI - you have 18-36 players in a zone, making you currency/gil to progress with your relic.
XIV - you have 1 person (yourself) farming currency for maybe 2 days if you are efficient. This is a SOLO part of the quest. If you are able to get people to help you with this, then good job.

Darkhold, Cutters etc etc

I covered this already, the people that do this with you are either on the quest or beyond it. So it is in their best interest. If they are neither, then they have their eye on Darklight, which in an effective EG linkshell is not usually the case.

Besides, a lot of people - myself included find dungeons fun.

Behest - this point made me laugh. You do it once. Solo. On a lvl 50 job.

Caravan - I agree this is batshit boring, along with hamlet but once again - 3-4 people on the quest and you can get it done.

Hamlet - Yeah, I don't even consider it part of the relic quest as it's a pre-req to start it only. But I do agree it is boring and repetative. Already covered this earlier anyway.

until you had the gil or currency to buy them

This was regarding the melds, it's a small hurtle. Definitely is at no level of farming over 200 million XI gil (which is worth more) worth of currency. There needs to be some gil or random element to it to satisfy the Tanaka void.

Me: they just took more time, grinding, player manipulation, and selfishness.
you: So does XIV's relics...still no difference the more you explain it this way.

Sorry but if you think XIV relics take excessive amounts of TIME then how does a "casual" like myself obtain a few? I still stand by that there is a much larger element to skill in XIV then there is in XI - as it basically involved (if i remember correctly) farming a butt-tonne amount of gil/currency, doing 2 easy fights, and trading in a few cheap crafting items.

Oh you were being sarcastic lol, damn my sarcasm detector is off today, since you do more grinding in XIV's version of relics than you did in XI's, especially with XIV relying more on RNG than XI's. The only grind to XI's relics is the currency, with XIV you had to grind a dungeon you were already grinding for other gear..ONTOP of having to eventually grind currency too.

Firstly, if you believe the whole XIV quest is a grind, then you shouldn't be playing this game - as it includes all end-game content. Saying that XIV's relics required more RNG is laughable. The very drop rate on ancient currency on XI is an RNG in itself, which is the part of the quest that takes 3-6 months (depending on efficiency) of flat out grinding to even come close. Currency alone has a random drop rate, with 100-pieces being extremely rare (1-3 per linkshell run if you're lucky.) XIV includes a couple of weeks of hamlet, maybe 2 days of grinding SOLO, a bit of team effort (with team rewards) and 2 of the toughest fights in the game at the moment.

Double melded class weapons, which although expensive (can be cheap depending how you go about it), beastmen currency, and hamlet seals (which are only done once in your whole XIV career) is practically the only things based off RNG.

A big point I believe you seem to be overlooking in my original post was that XI involved having to drag 18-36 players along with you- for very little reward (if any), regardless if they desired to build a relic or not, and get them to mindlessly kill mobs for you. XIV involves a group effort, to get everyone in that group a relic, and does not include anywhere near as much grinding through as XI did. If it did, only these "hardcore" players would be holding relics, and yes - I am a casual, I want my slice of the cake too.

So I stand by my point that grinding out for 3-6 months, sure might be dedication but it definitely does not involve skill, and is the cheapest way to make an item in the game rare. XIV's take has a heavy weight on player skill according to a dictionary definition of the term, rather then a quest predominately based on RNG (XI).

The best gear in the game should be based on skill, not grinding til the end of days.

[Fadigre]

So I stand by my point that grinding out for 3-6 months, sure might be dedication but it definitely does not involve skill, and is the cheapest way to make an item in the game rare. XIV's take has a heavy weight on player skill according to a dictionary definition of the term, rather then a quest predominately based on RNG (XI).

The best gear in the game should be based on skill, not grinding til the end of days.

\o/
/10char

[Xatsh]

SE already announced legendary weapons previously, the relics should not be the best in the game as they are way to easy to get my ls has people with 4 relics which were obtained in about a 50days.... That is at the level of extreme casual for being the best weapons.

The best gear in the game should take much more time, the way XI did it where only 1-4% of population ever had one is the way it should be. The best item in the whole game should NOT be obtainable by everyone and should take obscene amounts of time to get, it SHOULD be a grind, and it should be painfully hard. The ultimate weapon is the carrot on a stick for the extreme hardcore it is what will keep them in the game. And once obtained the item should be the best item in the game forever, but it should take 6months-2yrs of solid work to obtain.

People hate the Grind but it is 100% required for the best of the best. There is no such thing as hard content once the whole party learns and understands a successful strategy. Dynamis in XI used to be considered near impossible at the start btw, until everyone learned the pathing and pulls.

XIV's relic quest is laughable compared to the difficulty of obtaining a relic in XI.

[Altena]

XIV's relic quest is laughable compared to the difficulty of obtaining a relic in XI.

You seem to believe that difficulty = time spent, and not defeating hard content.

It is not difficult for me to sort out a giant bag of $1 & $2 coins, but it is difficult for me to get those coins to begin with.

Difficulty should be gauged on the skill required to get it, not the time/patience.

Ignoring XI comparisons now~

XIV "Relics" will be upgradable (confirmed unless the boss changes his mind).
"Legendary" weapons will exist (another stem from "Relics", either based on a different quest or an upgraded version of the relic).
As it is now, I can see Relic weapons as being the base item required for any Legendary weapon quest. Although they may not be the most iconic pieces in the game, when the servers finally close down in xxxx amount of years - I can see them being required for the questline for the future "Ultimate" weapons.

Should they be best in slot until that happens? Damn right they should. They are currently the most difficult to obtain at the moment, and with the word that they are upgradable - they should exceed Titan/Levi/Siren weapons..

Personally I would like to see a full armor set stem from primal fights along with weapons. This would give the current "best weapon in the game" holders a reason to do the new content.

[Meatdawg]

Yoshi already said Titan weapons would be better then relics.