The Current Economy

[Altena]

So in reply to a thread on a completely different topic, one of my replies sparked this train of thought. While the reduction in gil value (10 gil will become 1 gil etc) was a nice way to temporarily reduce the shiny number people have in their banks, it does not improve the game economy in a long term. Along with this, expendable items (such as throwing weapons / ammunition) are being removed.

My point? There is currently only one end-game gil sink in the current version of the game, and it is small. That is the 50-100k~ class weapon items, purchased from the NPC and unobtainable anywhere else. Everything else can be generated by the game via farming, levequests, etc.

I believe for a healthier economy that there needs to be a bigger focus on this, come 2.0. There always has to be a way to generate gil from nothing, but in the reverse sense there has to be a way to remove it. Removing throwing weapons / ammo (that could have been used as NPC only items) probably doesn't improve the economy so much.

Before people will bring up the melding point - that is not a sink by any means, as the gil is coming from a game generated source (converting items to materia that is made from materials that are originally farmed/game generated, or simply buying from another player which is simply gil circulation). Blowing this up, also isn't a gil sink as all of these come from a game generated source.

So if we break that down very quickly, the only things people actually throw money at - are the hamlet items used for class weapons. Let's look at best case - the most hardcore player who builds 7 relics, double melds at an 18% chance (so approximately 1 in 5), you are only looking at 35x of these 50k items that is being removed from the game. That's 1.75 mil. That same hardcore player can make that in a couple (to be generous) of hours, farming from generated sources.

My point in all of this? As much as people won't like hearing it - there needs to be more gil sinks, where gil is removed from the system in some form.

One suggestion would be to have an NPC that sells the base level IV materia (say STR +16) at a reasonable price (competative with the market) or potentially removing the ability to aquire some commonly used items from game generated sources like farming/gathering. These are probably the simplest methods I can think of, as I am no economist but unless this happens the general rule of gil being generated but not removed will simply cause economic issues.

Could even have a bit of fun with it - some thief class mobs in previous FF's could "steal" gil. Perhaps make it percentage based (kind of like a tax really)..

Anyway tldr version: Need more gil sinks.

[Nix]

There will be more gil sinks, in time♪

When the housing system hits, that's going to be a pretty decent sink and there will be more in the future~

[Altena]

There will be more gil sinks, in time♪

When the housing system hits, that's going to be a pretty decent sink and there will be more in the future~

That's like saying "everything will be ok" without any actual point. The housing system is one example that may have an initial outlay (for land costs I am assuming) but from what I read in the live letter about it - the only real cost to that is the land. Going by how 1.xx economy went towards the end, with them having to reduce a digit as some people hit capped gil - isn't exactly a positive result.

What they really need is a common item that everyone requires, yet is consumed frequently. Otherwise once everyone buys their block of land, makes a pretty house, they will go back to hoarding gil.

[Nix]

That's like saying "everything will be ok" without any actual point. The housing system is one example that may have an initial outlay (for land costs I am assuming) but from what I read in the live letter about it - the only real cost to that is the land. Going by how 1.xx economy went towards the end, with them having to reduce a digit as some people hit capped gil - isn't exactly a positive result.

You're expecting everything right off the bat though and telling SE what they already know.
Saying they need gil sinks is like saying a human needs oxygen to survive. - It's obvious and I'm sure they know this already

[Altena]

You're expecting everything right off the bat though and telling SE what they already know.
Saying they need gil sinks is like saying a human needs oxygen to survive. - It's obvious and I'm sure they know this already

Well I don't expect much, a simple NPC that sells stuff people need & forces gil out of the game would suffice, and I am sure that wouldn't take very long :/

I was also under the belief that the housing system (the only example that is known) wasn't coming til a following patch? Pretty sure it was mentioned that it wasn't going to be ready for 2.0 release. I could eat my words sure, but the point needs to be made as I fear that the game will fall back into having the bad economy that we saw in 1.x..

I mean I have complete faith in yoshi & his team of devs, however going by the information available, the point has to be raised.

[Inaaca]

The redenomination isn't supposed to be an instant fix all for the economy. It also isn't a one time gil sink, nor is it supposed to be. Everything is redenominated, not just player wallets.

It merely reduces the overinflated gil values of everything in order to simplify things a bit and allow lower quantities of gil to have actual value. In other words, this does improve the economy in the long term, albeit in a different sense.

As far as the rest though, yeah. Gil sinks are important to keep driving an economy.

[Altena]

The redenomination isn't supposed to be an instant fix all for the economy. It also isn't a one time gil sink, nor is it supposed to be. Everything is redenominated, not just player wallets.

It merely reduces the overinflated gil values of everything in order to simplify things a bit and allow lower quantities of gil to have actual value. In other words, this does improve the economy in the long term, albeit in a different sense.

As far as the rest though, yeah. Gil sinks are important to keep driving an economy.

Well yes it doesn't change the value of the gil you own, I understand that, and welcome it etc. I just fear even after that happens, it will just allow those with capped gil in 1.x to start making gil again. It doesn't solve the issue of having more gil then people can spend, floating around on the server.

With the assumed influx of new and returning players, this will be needed more then ever - as more people with access to farming / generating gil = a lot more gil in circulation. Without a few very solid sinks, things will go pear shaped.

[Abriael]

@Altena: Nix has a point: housing is, historically, one of the biggest gil sinks in MMORPGs. There's no real reason to believe that housing will be cheap in ARR (as a matter of fact, Yoshida stated that it'll be costly). You don't necessarilly need MANY gil sinks. You just need big ones

Before calling for more gil sinks, we need to see what the ten ton gorilla will be like. If housing is costly enough, it can sink billions of gil easily.

Also, to be noted, housing normally tends to be a rather unintrusive gil sink for those that don't have much money, as it's an optional feature.

Those that don't have much money will get a very small house, spending little. Many of those that are really rich will spend a ton on it. With this kind of system you suck money out of the market from those that have a lot, leaving those that don't with a bit of breathing room. It's pretty much one of the best ways to do it.

[axemtitanium]

There are two major gilsinks currently implemented in the game.

1) Repair NPCs, which aren't quite as effective because you can just get your friends to repair for you in exchange for 500gil and DM. DM technically costs money but can also be found in a lot of places so this is mostly a bust. Chocobo rentals are equally useless.

2) Tax on Market Ward transactions. Currently, there's a tax for both buying and selling although the buyer's tax can be waived if you bother to actually go to the correct ward and purchase the item in person instead of using the Item Search Counter. This is a low % but high-volume gil sink since every sale loses 2-5% of the sale price to the void. Clearly it's not sufficient to counteract the effects of RMT though and it certainly couldn't deal with the amount of gil dumped into circulation as a result of Atomos.

I was also told that double-melding was a great gilsink but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it actually wasn't since gil isn't actually removed from circulation when equipment blows up. So that's out...

So if we break that down very quickly, the only things people actually throw money at - are the hamlet items used for class weapons. Let's look at best case - the most hardcore player who builds 7 relics, double melds at an 18% chance (so approximately 1 in 5), you are only looking at 35x of these 50k items that is being removed from the game. That's 1.75 mil. That same hardcore player can make that in a couple (to be generous) of hours, farming from generated sources.

I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about here. What item is this?

[Shougun]

Houses, from what YoshiP has said will range from cheap to ghastly expensive. So.. "Please look forward to that" (Beyond buying the house you will also have upgrading the house and filling it up - Seeing as YoshiP has also stated that Houses will get its own expansion packs, he plans this to be big).

Another gil sink that "may" go along with houses is reoccurring fees (rental/upkeep/and or tax) - though I dont believe there was any mention of that so far.




Currently

1. Repairs
2. MW Taxes
3. Materia/melds (if the item is destroyed the money you used to buy the gear / materia turns into a null reward. 100000 gil -> null, is a gil sink XD)
4. (Ammunition seems to be largely going by the wayside in ARR - but it was a gil sink)
5. Foods and other consumables