Focus Classes amongst their respective Jobs

[Dzian]

To Dzian,
Rebuttal in red text:..

Ok you've made it tricky to respond to individual points in your layout. but....

A WAR can solo it's way through a mass ton of mobs not just one on one but several at a time. This makes for an incredibly high level of efficiency. even on guild leve mobs severel levels higher. Something a MRD simply cannot do.

A GLA has invigorate and second wind sure but what are you going to do with that tp. An extra flat blade perhaps while all your other skills are on cool down? A PLD has Spirits Within which is a very powerfull attack on a 60 second cool down which is 30 seconds less than Invigorate. No second wind perhaps but there is Holy Succor and you can Bloodbath your Spirits Within and get hp restored. By going GLA and using second wind you you say you reduce downtime between fights, but as a PLD those fights will be over much faster and often chaining more together than you could on GLA.

I personally prefer to dispatch enemies efficiently with little to no downtime in between fights on leves in order to get the maximum bonus.

You, Me and everyone else. whether that bonus be more exp from a leve reward or more farmed items in the same time frame effeciency matters which is why jobs win.

[Rhomagus]

ok you've made it tricky to respond to individual points in your layout. but....

Aa warrior can solo it's way through a mass ton of mobs not just one on one but several at a time. this makes for an incredibly high level of efficiency. even on guild leve mobs severel levels higher. something a marauder simply cannot do.

a gla has invigorate and second wind sure but what are you going to do with that tp. an extra flat blade perhaps. a pld has spirits within which is very powerfull attack on a 60 second cool down not to different from that of invigorate. no second wind perhaps but there is holy succor and you can bloodbath your spirits and get an amount of hp not to different from that of second wind. by going gla and using second wind you you say you reduce downtime between fight but as a paladin those fights will be over much faster and often chaining more together than you could on gla

You Me and everyone else. whether that bonus be more exp from a leve reward or more farmed items in the same time frame. which is why jobs win.

But they don't, not in solo situations. The only reason I make the claims that I do is because I used to make the same mistakes that you do.

When the job system was introduced I failed to recognize the adaptability of the classes. I just saw the jobs as advanced classes since you could still set abilities from other classes. I'd solo GC leves at Camp Bald Knoll as whatever job around 40 I needed to level while I'd wait for a party invite or a linkshell event. In my time doing this I found that I was able to get a higher GC seal yield whenever I used the correct abilities in anticipation of the style of guildleve I accepted.

Different guildleve styles would require more of an emphasis on either offense or defense but because I was solo I couldn't afford to sacrifice either and still maintain prime efficiency. Different combinations of abilities changed depending on the class I was currently playing as and the type of guildleve I needed to complete. This is when I started exploring the differences between classes and I found that with the right abilities set, I was more effective, even with lower level gear in certain places, every time as a class rather than when I was a job.

This was proved in the form of not only higher yields per leve but also in leve completion per hour.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

Only thing you need to know is GLA gains more dmg less cool down on skills and will be doing more ws than war which = more dmg. After they fixed plds ws dmg prob in that sub pacth the gap between war/pld DD got closer than it should imo.

Do you have parse results? You must be paired with some pretty terrible warriors.

[Valmonte]

Do you have parse results? You must be paired with some pretty terrible warriors.

With both Warrior and Paladin equally equipped, Warriors barely edge out against paladins vs single targets and that's only if the Warrior is Berserked. otherwise Paladin Will have the Edge over Warrior.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

With both Warrior and Paladin equally equipped, Warriors barely edge out against paladins vs single targets and that's only if the Warrior is Berserked. otherwise Paladin Will have the Edge over Warrior.

Except we weren't talking about PLD. We were talking about GLA!

[Shurrikhan]

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing classes changed a bit to make them more interesting -- cross-class abilities, while enjoyable don't seem especially distinct or fitting. That said, the means for this shouldn't overlap with jobs.

I usually see classes being a sort of window into the possibilities of a fight that can bring almost any tool to serve it while working within the confines of its weapon, and jobs as a distinct toolset (which then causes a 'window' of its own, but less directly).

Honestly, in this sense, it seems like almost everyone *could* tank, and everyone *could* dps, to varying extents. The means need only vary greatly.

And I suppose this doesn't really apply specifically to any of the sets of abilities we have right now. But, as so many will be changing in ARR, that seems the least of problems in this vague idea.

[whoopeeragon]

I could see Classes gaining their own unique skills past a certain level while Jobs branch the other way, but the balancing of that would be a nightmare. Not to mention the inevitable bitching of the community of "WHY CAN'T I USE THAT ABILITY ON MY PLD IT'S UBER ON MY GLA" etc etc.

One thing I can suggest is for classes to use TP more often than the jobs. That's to say, have more abilities that use TP which can THEN be equipped across the classes. Radiance, for example, from the CNJ line of abilities - TP weaponskill, does damage, and regains MP. A good ability even for the melee classes, which allows them a few more precious drops of MP to cure or buff.

What I'm more thinking about is probably best described in a chart...Let's use Conjurer as an example.

Level 1 - Stone [CNJ/WHM]
|
Level 2 - Cure [CNJ/WHM]
|
....
|
Level 30 - Cura [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 30 - Purge [CNJ]------Presence of Mind [WHM]
\ /
|
Level 34 - Sacred Prism [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 35 - Radiance [CNJ]------Regen [WHM]
\ /
|
Level 38 - Shroud of Saints [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 40 - Shock Spikes [CNJ]------Esuna [WHM]
\ /
|
Level 42 - Aerora [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 45 - Boon [CNJ]------Holy [WHM]
\ /
|
Level 46 - Curaga [CNJ/WHM]
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Level 50 - Repose [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 50 - Coruscation [CNJ]------Benediction [WHM]
\ /
|
(The following is just speculation on what can be added with level cap raise)
|
Level 55 - Reraise [CNJ/WHM]
|
/ \
(QUEST) Level 55 - Evanescence [CNJ]------Eschaton [WHM]

Explanation of abilities chosen (and my own interpretation):
Purge - removes elemental attributes of target enemy. Meaning that resists against Aero and Stone gets removed, even allowing Fire, Blizzard, Thunder etc. to potentially hit harder given the right circumstances.
Radiance - TP move, deals non-elemental magical damage, chance to regain MP.
Shock Spikes - covers body in electric waves that have a chance at paralyzing the enemy.
Boom - increases cast and recast time to lengthen spell duration of next enhancing spell.
Coruscation - TP move, deals variable non-elemental magical damage, chance to absorb HP and MP. (combo; Radiance - chance to also absorb TP)
Evanescence - TP move, deals high non-elemental magical damage, chance to inflict DoT effect. (combo; Radiance - attack turns into AoE target)
Eschaton - deals heavy holy damage in area of effect around target enemy, chance to inflict Dia effect.

Of course, it's really the system that I'm trying to get through. I feel that the class-quests are a bit of a waste, since they generally don't really do anything for the [Classes] themselves. So they could have class and job quests run parallel, and reward abilities at the end of each questline.

The only condition is that the class abilities gained from questlines can be used by OTHER classes, but cannot be used by jobs. Jobs gain their own specialised abilities.

[Arkine]

As the are now, classes are pretty much useless.

Classes should just be a formality where you start as a class, and at level 30 be required to unlock its job to level it any further. (Why would a Dragoon willingly go back to being a lancer anyway?)

[whoopeeragon]

As the are now, classes are pretty much useless.

Classes should just be a formality where you start as a class, and at level 30 be required to unlock its job to level it any further. (Why would a Dragoon willingly go back to being a lancer anyway?)

In all honesty, the class system merely needs a tweak and it can stand on it's own. I really think introducing class-only abilities will aid that, if they implement the abilities well.

Dragoon going back onto Lancer will benefit from almost 5 survivability abilities straight off. But I can see why you would think as such. Really, we just need to polish up on a few aspects, and it would work in conjunction with the job system.

[Alaltus]

In all honesty, the class system merely needs a tweak and it can stand on it's own. I really think introducing class-only abilities will aid that, if they implement the abilities well.

Dragoon going back onto Lancer will benefit from almost 5 survivability abilities straight off. But I can see why you would think as such. Really, we just need to polish up on a few aspects, and it would work in conjunction with the job system.

Perhaps but what i'm talking about is allowing Classes to solo more on their own merits and less with the aid of other Classes while it is interesting trying to swap abilities around(though currently alot of them are downright useless) people forget that they had to level a bunch of classes some of them almost the entire way through. Chameleon for example is lv 42 Archer which is ridiculous for such an important ability for a player to have to level so far through archer's experience bar to obtain.

When new players come to 14 if its the same as it is now they will find they have to spend numerous hours on classes they dont like and dont want to play. And if SE increases the time it takes to level(which they said they will) that places this system as a even larger burden on players who just want to play whatever it is they want to play. The current system doesnt really effect me i already spent all the work getting classes up but it seems a waste to keep the status quo. I could go for a reduction of the number of class skills equippable but still leave some to choose from but with the increase in time taken to level they should reduce the burden on players.